Ukrainian War Developments

victoon said:

War obviously is a redline for most people on earth, including most Chinese. The west used 伐交 and Russia used 攻城, each respectively causing more human suffering and injustice to Ukraine but also a higher level of moral corruption to their own society. China is 伐谋, the best.

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Then the US must be held to that standard first. There must be consistency. It cannot be ok for the US to invade countries in the middle east but not OK for Russia to do the same to Ukraine. Since the West is unbalanced and desires to give America special rights, we Chinese must counter and give Russia special rights, and if we should need them, we can reasonably hope that Russia will do the same for us. Failing that, America and NATO will be the only ones with those rights.

Deino said:

In fact I can only strongly contradict. There is no good and bad, fine and evil either West or East. Both sides similar to powers since ages compete on influence, power and whatever by any political means be that "bribery, corruption, CIA or FSB penetration, etc ..." That was always that way and will always be the same as long humans exist.

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There is no contradiction so far. These are all ways and so is war.

Deino said:

The point however is that there is nothing like a certain countries backyard, where Russia has the right to dominate the will of a certain country and its peoples in the same way there is a right to say this is the "US' backyard". No one has the right to write roles for another independent country.

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That is a romantic view. But for the world to be at peace, large countries should have their spheres of influence containing their smaller neighbors and never transgress into the spheres of other large powers. Small countries don't step out of line against the rulers of their domain (at first because they dare not, and because they dare not and do not, relations with the ruling countries are good, which makes them want not), and those ruling countries do not bear their terrible powers against each other. That way, no major conflicts can erupt and when large powerful countries aren't worried about fighting each other, less can be dedicated to the military and more for enjoyment and social progress. When a power like the US is greedy and insists on making the world its backyard, then it becomes the root of major global conflict.

Deino said:

What however happens is a rivalry and as such an offer what system the peoples better like regardless if this is done by any political means be that again "bribery, corruption, CIA or FSB penetration, etc ...". What however is illegal, that this "writing of rules" for a foreign, independent and sovereign country is done by war and here it indeed does not matter if this is done by Russia, the USA or any one else.

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But illegal means nothing if the consequences are not suffered. The West has made it such that the US can commit these crimes largely without consequence. Although we do not yet have the power to fully do that for Russia yet, we can do our best and support Russia however we can to make things as even as possible. And that will be enough for Russia.

Deino said:

In fact I'm most surprised and annoyed that some seem to rate this a legal war! No war like this is legal or justified.

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Legal and illegal have no meaning without consequences. As long as the US does not suffer consequences for the wars it starts and the atrocities it commits, neither should Russia. In a vacuum, it is wrong for one country to use military force to coerce any other country, but the world does not exist in a vacuum; the power dynamic of the US, EU, China, and Russia, does not exist in a vacuum.

Deino said:

Really .. and anything comming from the pro-Ruussian side is nothing but the truth and facts!?

I think anyone with a decent rationale knows pretty sure that the truth is one of the first victim of any war but I find it - to put it mildly - that some here still think this is a justified war against a Nazi-regime, that only military targets are attacked and destroyed and that the Russian mission is progressing as planned.

We should take ANY claim if not substantiated by image proof with a huge grain of salt.

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Treat every single report coming from Western, Ukrainian, and Russian sources with a grain of salt. With regards to the Western Media, treat especially American and British sources with a grain of salt. There is so much propaganda in this conflict coming from participants and supporters on both sides in this conflict. CNN and MSNBC and to a somewhat lesser extent the BBC have become extension of Ukrainian State Media as far as this conflict is concerned and they are very much like RT in this regard.

manqiangrexue said:

Then the US must be held to that standard first. There must be consistency. It cannot be ok for the US to invade countries in the middle east but not OK for Russia to do the same to Ukraine. Since the West is unbalanced and desires to give America special rights, we Chinese must counter and give Russia special rights.

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the US lost so much ground because of their endless wars. I think Russia will suffer the same. in the last thirty years, every major country have won the war they entered but lost out in the longer run.

I don't think China is in the position to give any country special rights. China is against all wars. But China also doesn't believe in sanctions. To me "trade as usual" is a good policy. to be honest that's kinda how the US gain their hegemony anyway.

Deino said:

In fact I can only strongly contradict. There is no good and bad, fine and evil either West or East. Both sides similar to powers since ages compete on influence, power and whatever by any political means be that "bribery, corruption, CIA or FSB penetration, etc ..." That was always that way and will always be the same as long humans exist. The point however is that there is nothing like a certain countries backyard, where Russia has the right to dominate the will of a certain country and its peoples in the same way there is a right to say this is the "US' backyard". No one has the right to write roles for another independent country.

What however happens is a rivalry and as such an offer what system the peoples better like regardless if this is done by any political means be that again "bribery, corruption, CIA or FSB penetration, etc ...". What however is illegal, that this "writing of rules" for a foreign, independent and sovereign country is done by war and here it indeed does not matter if this is done by Russia, the USA or any one else.

In fact I'm most surprised and annoyed that some seem to rate this a legal war! No war like this is legal or justified.

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I hope people in this forum would not be naïve to relate war with notions of right or wrong or legality, really can you apply any of these notions to US's past wars?

All war is caused by miscalculation from one side or both. Ukraine miscalculated Russian resolve in the matter and keep poking them with the expectation that NATO will come to their aid. Russia may or may not have miscalculated the true cost of this war and went in anyway.

The true instigator of the war however is doing very well, the US managed to finally torpedo NS-2 and utterly destroy any chance of Russo-Euro cooperation in the future. Europe has lost their political and economical independence and is looking at extreme economical disruption in the near future, which can only be seen as good news for US economy as a safe financial haven.

victoon said:

the US lost so much ground because of their endless wars. I think Russia will suffer the same. in the last thirty years, every major country have won the war they entered but lost out in the longer run.

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That's fine, but irrelevant to the fact that if consequences are not felt by the US for instigating war, then they should not be felt for Russia either. And if there is an imbalance, we can do our best to correct it even if we do not have the power to fully do so.

victoon said:

I don't think China is in the position to give any country special rights.

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To continue normal relations with Russia despite its invasion of another country is equivalent to giving it special rights to invade another country. This is what the EU does for the US. If things were fair, the US should have been sanctioned for its invasion of the middle east by every country that now sanctions Russia. Things aren't fair, but China makes them as fair as we can.

victoon said:

China is against all wars.

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I don't know about that. It does seem that Xi knew about Russia's intent beforehand and China does not renounce use of force on Taiwan if they should make a stupid move.

victoon said:

But China also doesn't believe in sanctions. To me "trade as usual" is a good policy. to be honest that's kinda how the US gain their hegemony anyway.

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That's fine, I agree, but it's aside from the topic that we should support Russia even if its actions seem wrong in a vacuum because we do not exist in a vacuum and if we do not support our ally now, Russia will not support us later. It means a world where the US and EU team up and corner both Russia and China one after the other (not like it worked for them last time they tried cornering China, but the point is to deny them their bully fantasy nonetheless). We should stand together and support each other no matter what, and that is what China is doing.

RottenPanzer said:

Regarding the recent Ukrainian "counterattack"

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1506405649810305030

And also this comparison has been going on lately, my question is that did Ukraine have announce this much Russian casualties at 14th of March?
View attachment 85780

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Russia revived 4000 troops, recovered 30 fuel trucks, recovered 50 SAMs and recovered 350 tanks. Am I understanding this correctly?

victoon said:

the US lost so much ground because of their endless wars. I think Russia will suffer the same. in the last thirty years, every major country have won the war they entered but lost out in the longer run.

I don't think China is in the position to give any country special rights. China is against all wars. But China also doesn't believe in sanctions. To me "trade as usual" is a good policy. to be honest that's kinda how the US gain their hegemony anyway.

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China is not against all wars. PRC is not a pacifist nation. PRC is OK with defensive wars and in every defensive war, while being on the strategic defensive, China was on the tactical offensive to seize enemy territory as a buffer. PRC territory has never been invaded because of this doctrine, it has always been the PLA invading others, from a western perspective.

Russia is also in a defensive war and it is seizing enemy territory as a buffer, a precedent set by China in the Korean War, Sino-Indian War and Sino-Vietnamese War. Russia is not waiting for its territory to be seized.

If Russia is wrong then every war the PRC has fought in is also wrong. Can you clarify your beliefs?

Violence is immoral and wrong. Justifying it is a stretch but doable. Your bias determines the general feelings you have towards a certain war.

Western violence perpetrated by the US and allies against multiple nations have never been up against the same level of scrutiny, false information and downright attempts to misinform and disinform the global community as this Russian one.

As a person, I cannot condone what Russia's doing but I can also concede this is their choice and their business. Am I going to be condemning them? I could only really do that with any honesty and decency if I understand the entire geopolitical picture and their justifications/motivations. They cannot disclose everything they know either. At this point, American wars have been just as if not more bloody, violent and even less reasonable even just at the surface of it. Until the day the US has to pay in full for all its crimes against other nations and humanity, how can honest and decent people begin condemning Russia? This isn't the bullshit "oh that's whataboutism" from the usual Reddit freedom army neo lib and conservative morons. This is pointing out the criminal and dangerous double standard. If allowed to perpetuate, grants the US led Western world undue power and right in determining for everyone what they can and can't do and what they can and can't say and think. The West has proven itself to be thoroughly evil and a cunning propagandist. So why would neutral peoples want to support this? Because the West is glossy and rich due to the riches they stole and plundered for centuries? Riiiiiiiiight.

The West desires to rule the world and enslave all in a hierarchy they consider "rules based" and "ordered". Those who benefit from it are naturally in full support of it.

The genuine reasons for all this is never said and if muttered, must be shut down immediately via censorship, hordes of trollish comments, ad hom attacks, and character assassinations like calling someone a "tankie" or "50 cent army" "bot" etc etc... when the reality is so far from that. People don't want to admit the reality. Everything has been and is about power, money, wealth, resources, and its distribution.

Why do mainstream narratives continue carrying on with the lies and the repetition of that facade? Because it's able to poison the well so to speak. Propaganda and brainwashing works by making empty claims and unfalsifiable statements. Repeat that often enough and everyone no matter who it is will begin believing it.

The only counter to being brainwashed is to ignore all information and question it all. Listen and read, combine, assess, test, re-evaluate likelihood, LISTEN TO ALL SIDES and get BALANCE. Re-evaluate constantly. Do not allow yourself to be convinced of ANYTHING.

But human intellect and emotions do not make this easy or even possible in many cases.

Deino said:

In fact I'm most surprised and annoyed that some seem to rate this a legal war! No war like this is legal or justified.

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Legal or not doesn't matter. Its all about interests and security concerns.

Russia was concerned about Ukraine becoming a Western military base so it pulled the trigger and is now destroying it.

Great powers want friendly or at least neutral countries neighboring it. Ukraine was neither of it and as such it is now getting invaded. Don't forget that Putin made efforts by asking US and EU to reconsider their NATO stance about Ukraine. They both declined so everything after that was predictable.

In fact, I predicted that a war would happen this year, a year ago. The signs were all there.

Russia's security was deteriorating while the West declined to addressed these concerns. It was destined a war would happen. No great power would tolerate such a situation