Ukrainian War Developments

Richard Santos said:

It is a justified war to retain credibility of strategic deterrence and with it the ability to conduct independent foreign policy.

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not justified, either morally or strategically. The reality is that the west was successful in turning Ukraine to their side. It would have been a fair game for Russia to turn it back peacefully. But Russia didn't have the kind of influence anymore. So it cheated by using force. In the end, Russia's security is weakened. But I don't deny there might be some emotional gain, which is important.

故上兵伐谋，其次伐交，其次伐兵，其下攻城。

victoon said:

not justified， either morally or strategically. The reality is that the west was successful in turning Ukraine to their side. It would have been a fair game for Russia to turn it back peacefully. But Russia didn't have the kind of influence anymore. So it cheated by using force. In the end, Russia's security is weakened. But I don't deny there might be some emotional gain, which is important.

故上兵伐谋，其次伐交，其次伐兵，其下攻城。

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The West doesn't decide what the rules are or what's fair to use in turning a country. Americans used bribery, corruption, CIA penetration, etc... to turn brother against brother, none of which are legal or moral. Violence is not the determining factor between right and wrong and it is not the line between fair and cheating. This is Russia's backyard; it writes the rules, not the US.

Regarding the recent Ukrainian "counterattack"


And also this comparison has been going on lately, my question is that did Ukraine have announce this much Russian casualties at 14th of March?

victoon said:

not justified, either morally or strategically. The reality is that the west was successful in turning Ukraine to their side. It would have been a fair game for Russia to turn it back peacefully. But Russia didn't have the kind of influence anymore. So it cheated by using force. In the end, Russia's security is weakened. But I don't deny there might be some emotional gain, which is important.

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The Russians turned the situation around peacefully after the Orange Revolution. But then the West sponsored a coup against the legitimately elected government. And yes I know people claim Yanukovych was corrupt but so are most of the other politicians in Ukraine. That is why they elected him in the first place. The election where he was elected was inspected by the EU and other international observers and deemed as fair.
Even he was not as pro Russian as some people want to make you believe. For example his government made no effort to stamp out Right Sector after he came into power and in fact he also rubbed shoulders with them. Those guys became most attached into the government after the Orange Revolution.

victoon said:

not justified, either morally or strategically. The reality is that the west was successful in turning Ukraine to their side. It would have been a fair game for Russia to turn it back peacefully. But Russia didn't have the kind of influence anymore. So it cheated by using force. In the end, Russia's security is weakened. But I don't deny there might be some emotional gain, which is important.

故上兵伐谋，其次伐交，其次伐兵，其下攻城。

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There is no such thing as cheating when stakes are the credibility of a major nuclear power’s deterrence. you secure the credibility of your nuclear deterrence by any means necessary, up to and including the use of the said nuclear deterrence. All are justified to achieve that goal. Do it, and you will stay a nuckear power with all its attendant advantages. Don’t do it and you don’t deserve to be, and you soon won’t be one in a world where other people still will be. If you think a major nuclear power can get alone fine in the world without its nuclear power at the behest of another nuclear power, ask could it possibly be for your good that the other power retained his but want you to get rid of yours?

That is the only real measure because it is based on how things really work. All else are but self important dilettantes oblivious to how the world works making what they conceived to be high browed pontifications, or worse.

How russia began losing ukraine is totally irrelevant. the convolution that followed is also totally irrelevant. Neither has any bearing whatsoever on the essential necessity, for Russia, of preventing a NATO Ukraine.

manqiangrexue said:

The West doesn't decide what the rules are or what's fair to use in turning a country. Americans used bribery, corruption, CIA penetration, etc... none of which are legal or moral. Violence is not the determining factor between right and wrong and it is not the line between fair and cheating. This is Russia's backyard; it writes the rules, not the US.

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War obviously is a redline for most people on earth, including most Chinese. The west used 伐交 and Russia used 攻城, each respectively causing more human suffering and injustice to Ukraine but also a higher level of moral corruption to their own society. China is 伐谋, the best.

Deino said:

Really .. and anything comming from the pro-Ruussian side is nothing but the truth and facts!?

I think anyone with a decent rationale knows pretty sure that the truth is one of the first victim of any war but I find it - to put it mildly - that some here still think this is a justified war against a Nazi-regime, that only military targets are attacked and destroyed and that the Russian mission is progressing as planned.

We should take ANY claim if not substantiated by image proof with a huge grain of salt.

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Yes absolutely we should take any report with skepticism, as recently the case with the reports made by pro-Russian (?) outlets of the alleged killing of Wali.
But objectively, when we take into account such nonsense as the Ghost of Kiev, Snake Island Heroes, the sinking of Vasily Bykov and so on, then we can confidently say that it is the Ukrainians who currently have the 3:1 advantage ratio of LIES, FABRICATION AND MYTHS.

Therefore, any rational analysis should discard them outright, unless provided with stronger evidence.

manqiangrexue said:

The West doesn't decide what the rules are or what's fair to use in turning a country. Americans used bribery, corruption, CIA penetration, etc... to turn brother against brother, none of which are legal or moral. Violence is not the determining factor between right and wrong and it is not the line between fair and cheating. This is Russia's backyard; it writes the rules, not the US.

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In fact I can only strongly contradict. There is no good and bad, fine and evil either West or East. Both sides similar to powers since ages compete on influence, power and whatever by any political means be that "bribery, corruption, CIA or FSB penetration, etc ..." That was always that way and will always be the same as long humans exist. The point however is that there is nothing like a certain countries backyard, where Russia has the right to dominate the will of a certain country and its peoples in the same way there is a right to say this is the "US' backyard". No one has the right to write roles for another independent country.

What however happens is a rivalry and as such an offer what system the peoples better like regardless if this is done by any political means be that again "bribery, corruption, CIA or FSB penetration, etc ...". What however is illegal, that this "writing of rules" for a foreign, independent and sovereign country is done by war and here it indeed does not matter if this is done by Russia, the USA or any one else.

In fact I'm most surprised and annoyed that some seem to rate this a legal war! No war like this is legal or justified.

Stealthflanker said:

Do you guys think whether any prospects of Azov movement to Rebel against Ukrainian government ?

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Azov battalion are a small group currently fighting to death in Mariupol.

If you mean far right groups in general, evidence suggests the regular administration have already ceded control to them in major Ukrainian cities. Hence the Taliban style pole whippings currently going on.

lapain said:

Yes absolutely we should take any report with skepticism, as recently the case with the reports made by pro-Russian (?) outlets of the alleged killing of Wali.
But objectively, when we take into account such nonsense as the Ghost of Kiev, Snake Island Heroes, the sinking of Vasily Bykov and so on, then we can confidently say that it is the Ukrainians who currently have the 3:1 advantage ratio of LIES, FABRICATION AND MYTHS.

Therefore, any rational analysis should discard them outright, unless provided with stronger evidence.

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Let us not forget the