Ukrainian War Developments

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reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
Here what I think. I dont want to write a very long post so I will just write some oversimplified opinions on each power's national comprehensive power and then write some of my thoughts

- Russia: extrenely large relative (if not absolute) decline.

- EU relative decline on the global stage but increasingly dominating in a regional scale

- US relative decline on the global stage but it is still the hegemon and has quite a lot of "savings" accumulated.

- China: meteoric rise in the global stage.

The West has managed to draw Ukraine closer to it due to various reasons. Ofc the big one is orange revolution and the CIA but the birth of all problems stem from Russia's weak economy, lack of reforms and people not liking the "Russian system" (corruption)

It all boils down to finding a random Ukrainian and asking him:
"20 years in the future, what system would you like your country to follow, the EU/West or the Russian system?" The majority of them would say "EU/West"

What Putin is facing now is that as more time passes, Ukraine will inevitably get closer to EU and like it even more. So in my opinion, Putin has seen this and has decided to end this matter now that he has time and a window of opportunity to do so (high inflation in the west)

He has accepted/took a step back that Ukraine won't be close to Russia but on the other hand, he won't simply surrender Ukraine to the West. As such he wants Ukraine to not join NATO (and probably EU). A Finland-style solution would be a good compromise for Ukraine, meaning that it would become neutral.

As for the US, I have written before (last year) that it would be ideal if it could knock out Russia by collective western sanctions to it and "only" having to sacrifice a single disposable pawn, Ukraine and increased inflation for one or two years.
On the other hand, US fears inflation so it depends on how they balance these issues. IMO even with inflation fears, this is a precious window of opportunity where the US can economically delete Russia from its future rivalry with China

Honestly, I think that this opportunity is far too important for the US Deep state to ignore. This could help them in the long run on the rivalry with China. This is why I think that US would love to have Russia attack Ukraine. It would finally be able to rope in EU to impose crippling (harsher than the Crimea sanctions) sanctions on Russia

In the end, I hope can Putin can be smart on this and have a proper game plan. The whole world knows that an actual invasion would be terrible for Russia's economy so it is very possible (if not certain) that Putin is just trying to show that he is ready to invade in order to extract concessions from the West


Anyway, these are my short thoughts. I am sure that with these being so short, people can find plenty of loopholes and problematic points but please keep in mind that I am talking from an oversimplified long term strategic point of view
Economically, the Russians have already hit rock bottom and is on the mend. However weak its economic power, Russia is a significant military power and will be for decades to come.

Whatever sanctions the U.S. can place on Russia, it would be impossible to topple the current Russian government as long as both Putin is in charge and China is there to bolster their economy. Russia will be able to source most daily merchandise that they need from China. They will still obtain enough revenue from selling weapons/natural resources to China. The idea of knocking out Russia when Putin and China are there is just a fantasy.

Ukraine, like Taiwan, had already seen its opinion shifted to the West, but as war clouds loomed, but no fighting, Ukraine will be facing economic disaster. No foreign capital will invest in Ukraine. All the young people are leaving for other lands, In a couple of decades, Ukraine will be shell of its former selves. However, it will not be able to determine its own fate, just as Taiwan will not be able to determine its own fate. It is decided by Russia and the U.S., to a much less extend, Europe and China, whatever the opinions of its population. Over time, if the economy of Ukraine does not get better, we may actually see the opinion of its population shift away from the U.S.

If Putin can hold out for a decade, the power shift to China plus the internal strife inside the U.S. will mean that the U.S. will increasingly be less likely to pick fights in that region.

I agree that there is benefit for the U.S. if a fight were to occur between Russia and Ukraine, but it is not about toppling Russia. The U.S. has found it increasingly difficult to challenge China and needs the Western Europeans to fall in line. A fight between Ukraine and Russia is just the thing to enforce such loyalties. However, we are powerless to provide any economic incentive to the Western Europeans, so we can only use the stick. In the longer run, this is unsustainable. After the pain of economic losses, Europe will eventually have to follow its own interests and away from the U.S. because we can only force Europe to take economic pain to stay with us on trumped up security issues. Putin is also playing well with his hand by scaring the heck out of the Ukrainian government so his does not have to actually go to war.

Actually, it seems Biden does not really want to go to war. If he did, he would sanction the heck out of the Russians. Once the sanctions are applied, there will be no more downside to the Russian invasion and the Russians might invade. Instead, he threaten to use the sanctions.
 

sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
How the f.. did we arrive at this juncture? What's the genesis of this conflict, what I mean is when did the escalation started? Can you help enlighten me on this issue? I am well aware that the Russia vs Ukraine stems from the unraveling of the previous pro-Russian government that was toppled what is commonly known as the Maidan revolution. The subsequent annexation of Crimea or gained independence through unrecognized referendum. The separate enclave of Donbass and Lunestk?

But the prospect of war during Trump’s presidency didn't become a factor nor was the Ukrainian government headed by the same comedian President Zalanksy were itching or making any provocative move against Russia during that time. Fast forward to Biden’s presidency, a so-called "diplomacy first" presidency the situation in Ukraine vs Russia has gotten worst to the point that a war between two culturally linked people are about to decapitate each other. Am I missing something here? Or am I seeing that the very actions and rhetoric of Joe Biden are what's caused this incoming human catastrophe.

@Overbom help me understand or fill any gaps here will you.


While this is a bit of an oversimplistic analysis and mostly my opinion based on what I've read, but I think a big chunk of this is of NATO's own doing when, drunk with their "victory" over the USSR (and China still being seen as the sweatshop of world and of little threat to the anglo neoliberal status quo) they set out to make sure they are never challenged again, so the goal was to figure out a way to keep Russia under their thumb in all aspects

So they openly supported Yeltsin tantrums, antics, coups and corruption to the point of rigging 1996's Presidential elections to make sure the Communists didn't win. This coupled with Russia's overall weakness seems to be why the 90's were relatively calm in terms of new NATO aditions and conflicts of interests between them and Russia.

End the 90's and Yeltsin names Putin as his succesor after the former is impeached and becomes President of Russia, and looking at the news of the time, you can see the West was expecting Putin to be more of the same as Yeltsin and figuring out he would not last that long in office, anyway. This confidence is also evidenced in the fact of west dismissal of the notion of Russia joining NATO around this time and moving the goal posts as time went on, which they were more open to during initial approaches by Yeltsin

Roll the 00's, with the Russian victory over the chechens and becoming obvious Putin wasn't Yeltsin, that they couln't keep the country under their thumb from within, NATO starts to push east again this time directly against Russia's borders and its around this time the inclusion of Ukraine is first floated and then Georgia.

Georgia, emboldened by NATO's support for its membership, launches the attack on Russian position in Abkhazia under the mistaken idea that they would receive support. Russia promptly squashes the Georgian adventure and NATO(and Europe) in general being unable to put any of the blame on Russia back down for a bit, this is helped by the election of Obama who seemed to be far more conciliatory than his predecessor. This reaprochment, where we had that cringy "reset button" moment, seemed to ease the tensions for a time, though as we all know now, this was done to free resources and energy for Obama's infamous "Pivot to Asia" as at this point, the US figured China was on the way to challenge US hegemony as well.

Then the US-backed Arab Springs happened followed by NATO's bombing of Libya and the Syrian Civil War, all of this with little regard for Russian interests and security concerns and Russia had to relearn that NATO and the US were untrustworthy parties. Shit really hit the fan when the Maidan happened, though and Russia finally understood that the only language when it came to make themselves heard by NATO and the US understood was that of agression.

Shit just spiraled from there, anexation of Crimea, Easter Ukraine separatism, direct involvement in Syria's civil war, mercenaries in Libya and so on.

We had a brief break during Trump's presidency as he had larger hard-on for antagonizing China than Russia. Then the demo(n)(c)rats returned and with them their boner for Russia but while keeping also the attack on China going on.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Here what I think. I dont want to write a very long post so I will just write some oversimplified opinions on each power's national comprehensive power and then write some of my thoughts

- Russia: extrenely large relative (if not absolute) decline.

- EU relative decline on the global stage but increasingly dominating in a regional scale

- US relative decline on the global stage but it is still the hegemon and has quite a lot of "savings" accumulated.

- China: meteoric rise in the global stage.

The West has managed to draw Ukraine closer to it due to various reasons. Ofc the big one is orange revolution and the CIA but the birth of all problems stem from Russia's weak economy, lack of reforms and people not liking the "Russian system" (corruption)

It all boils down to finding a random Ukrainian and asking him:
"20 years in the future, what system would you like your country to follow, the EU/West or the Russian system?" The majority of them would say "EU/West"

What Putin is facing now is that as more time passes, Ukraine will inevitably get closer to EU and like it even more. So in my opinion, Putin has seen this and has decided to end this matter now that he has time and a window of opportunity to do so (high inflation in the west)

He has accepted/took a step back that Ukraine won't be close to Russia but on the other hand, he won't simply surrender Ukraine to the West. As such he wants Ukraine to not join NATO (and probably EU). A Finland-style solution would be a good compromise for Ukraine, meaning that it would become neutral.

As for the US, I have written before (last year) that it would be ideal if it could knock out Russia by collective western sanctions to it and "only" having to sacrifice a single disposable pawn, Ukraine and increased inflation for one or two years.
On the other hand, US fears inflation so it depends on how they balance these issues. IMO even with inflation fears, this is a precious window of opportunity where the US can economically delete Russia from its future rivalry with China

Honestly, I think that this opportunity is far too important for the US Deep state to ignore. This could help them in the long run on the rivalry with China. This is why I think that US would love to have Russia attack Ukraine. It would finally be able to rope in EU to impose crippling (harsher than the Crimea sanctions) sanctions on Russia

In the end, I hope can Putin can be smart on this and have a proper game plan. The whole world knows that an actual invasion would be terrible for Russia's economy so it is very possible (if not certain) that Putin is just trying to show that he is ready to invade in order to extract concessions from the West


Anyway, these are my short thoughts. I am sure that with these being so short, people can find plenty of loopholes and problematic points but please keep in mind that I am talking from an oversimplified long term strategic point of view
Appreciate the reply. But my problem with the whole Russia invasion thing is that it'll create a massive economic problem for Putin and regardless of how strong Russia is militarily that will not be enough to feed his people, provide them economic prosperity, jobs to have for a stable future. And if Putin decides to go YOLO he's essentially condemning his country to a future that will bring about the collapse of his popularity, his party which means destabilization ala repeat of 1991 where a new pro-western Russian political can emerge and then has the potential to join the if you can't beat them join them club, a.k.a. the U.S. and Europe. Which means, that's a big TROUBLE FOR CHINA.

You'll have CHINA essentially surrounded from west, south, and east. From Russia, and soon Central Asian states, India, Vietnam, Japan, South Korea, Australia. And since most people likes to side with the clear winner, it's not inconceivable that the countries who are maybe neutral to the China-U.S. rivalry would jump ship to the U.S. with Chinese investments gone to waste. That's my biggest fear.

The problem however is that the relationship between Russia and China isn't predicated on senior/junior relationship; it’s supposed to be based on mutual trust and respect: meaning equal partners. But as you can see the situation we're all witnessing is like watching a moving wrecking ball that maybe able to smash Ukraine to pieces but it'll inevitably swing back that can just as much potential damage to China's interest.

With the U.S. going all out against China from all angles it is difficult to foresee a China not being clipped if and when Russia under Putin isn't persuaded to avoid this problem. Unless of course my reading of the situation is totally improbable or impossible to happen.
 
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