Type 076 LHD/LHA discussion

zszczhyx

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Looks like the post has been deleted.

As if there was any additional reason for us to take it more seriously.

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Fortunately, a copy of it is available here:
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He needs to revise the "Bltizo, post: 616031, member: 4915"]

Looks like the post has been deleted.



As if there was any additional reason for us to take it more seriously.



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[/QUOTE]

He needs to revise the article. Will post tonight.
 

Klon

Junior Member
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A huge amount of information was released through an official website, and not for the first time (search the forum for weain). The kind of stuff most of us here would say China doesn't reveal (details of a ship's systems). It poses the question: are documents like these available for other projects? Is (was) there an equivalent for the Type 075 or the 003? Were those classified or just missed?

See
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on PDF for the links and a nice summary.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
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Sounds like sort of... PoW(remember its super LHA proposal?), just w/o F-35, but with a proper dock(or we are talking exactly LHA?)
Main concern is that stobar/catobar operations, especially with drones, need some windspeed over deck.
This may very well end up being even more of a carrier than America class is.

If we're talking about the GJ-11, it's a subsonic flying-wing drone.

It has more more wing area available than a fighter jet.
Plus the flight profile is typically at subsonic speeds, emphasising fuel-efficiency and range.
That should mean a lower takeoff speed is required.

So the disadvantages of a slower ship is not as apparent, particularly if the EMALs can compensate.
 

AndrewS

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It's already unconventional enough to marry the idea of a large LHD with EM catapults and arresting gear and with flying wing UCAVs.
Tinkering with the idea that 076 would not have its own ability to do maintenance or operate its aircraft independently or something is just adding another layer of complexity that frankly doesn't make sense from a capability and redundancy point of view because it's a massive tethering of dependence where the 076's capability is dependent basically on mainland support.

The thing to remember is that a Type-076 would still have a full hanger deck underneath the flight deck.

So there would be maintenance and repair facilities for a small wing of say 20 UCAVs based on board, which presumably would be comparatively low-maintenance. But is there really a need to undertake lots of planned intensive maintenance work like an engine overhaul?

But a Type-76 flight deck (with 2 catapults) should be able to support a much higher operations tempo, so why not use it to operate say another 2 wings of UCAVs based in mainland China?

That is what I mean by offloading most of the maintenance activities to airbases in mainland China.

So the end result is a Type-76 which is a much more potent aircraft carrier for a modest amount of extra investment, and doesn't concentrate more risk on a vulnerable carrier.

---

Plus realistically, Chinese carriers will be tethered to mainland Chinese support in a high-end conflict for the next 15 years at least.
There just won't be enough aircraft onboard Chinese carriers, so that they could survive independent operations beyond a distance of 2500km from the Chinese mainland.

So why not leverage unmanned aircraft based in mainland China, but jumping off from a carrier?
 

Blitzo

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The thing to remember is that a Type-076 would still have a full hanger deck underneath the flight deck.

So there would be maintenance and repair facilities for a small wing of say 20 UCAVs based on board, which presumably would be comparatively low-maintenance. But is there really a need to undertake lots of planned intensive maintenance work like an engine overhaul?

But a Type-76 flight deck (with 2 catapults) should be able to support a much higher operations tempo, so why not use it to operate say another 2 wings of UCAVs based in mainland China?

That is what I mean by offloading most of the maintenance activities to airbases in mainland China.

So the end result is a Type-76 which is a much more potent aircraft carrier for a modest amount of extra investment, and doesn't concentrate more risk on a vulnerable carrier.

---

Plus realistically, Chinese carriers will be tethered to mainland Chinese support in a high-end conflict for the next 15 years at least.
There just won't be enough aircraft onboard Chinese carriers, so that they could survive independent operations beyond a distance of 2500km from the Chinese mainland.

So why not leverage unmanned aircraft based in mainland China, but jumping off from a carrier?

If you're talking about supplementary operational concepts to enhance their ability to operate in westpac HICs, then sure that might be something to look at.

However, I believe the ship and crew itself will still be designed and configured in a way where at baseline it can still operate independently at long distances and duration without mainland support that you are talking of.
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
Continuing from the breaking news thread.

Lol this guy works fast.

View attachment 61904

Not sure that deck layout makes sense to me. The landing strip is angled too strongly, making for an awkward approach path (for an unmanned aircraft especially) and runway end crop. Seems an extreme compromise to facilitate simultaneous landing and launch operations, even though the requirement for such is markedly reduced by the long endurance of U(C)AVs and the lower fixed wing ops tempo of a LHA. The in-line landing and launch version would seem to be more practical, the obviously egregious J-15s not withstanding.
 

Blitzo

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Not sure that deck layout makes sense to me. The landing strip is angled too strongly, making for an awkward approach path (for an unmanned aircraft especially) and runway end crop. Seems an extreme compromise to facilitate simultaneous landing and launch operations, even though the requirement for such is markedly reduced by the long endurance of U(C)AVs and the lower fixed wing ops tempo of a LHA. The in-line landing and launch version would seem to be more practical, the obviously egregious J-15s not withstanding.

The specific details of the CGI like the exact length of the ship and the exact angle of the runway are obviously done at the artist's own discretion, but the overall configuration is one which I think is viable.

Things I would change include:
- Shortening the ship a a fraction. Currently the ship is far too long and large it would displace like 60k tons looking at it. 50k ton tops seems more reasonable.
- Make the angle of the landing strip less significant, maybe up to 10 degrees instead of the current 14 degrees.
- I would move the entire "launch section" of the carrier -- i.e.: including the jet blast deflector and the catapult -- backwards so that it overlaps with the landing strip. Moving it backwards will allow the ship to be shorter (and displace less).

Now, some might see the "overlap" between the catapult and the landing strip to be a compromise as it would not allow "simultaneous launch and recovery".
However, simultaneous launch and recovery afaik is rarely practiced even by the USN. Instead, aircraft are launched cyclically whereby multiple aircraft are launched successively, and then multiple aircraft are recovered successively.
The purpose of the angled flight deck is to allow the recovery of aircraft to occur while the rest of your aircraft on the deck are spotted on the bow.

For a large LHD, you won't be asked to conduct massively high tempo fixed wing operations like a true carrier of equivalent displacement. Even in a "UCAV carrier" airwing loadout (more UCAV heavy and helicopter light), it probably won't carry that many UCAVs such that a single catapult won't be able to do sufficient launch and recovery cycles for a ship of its role.


It all goes back to what purpose this ship is meant to fulfill.

IMO, it is meant to be a large LHD primarily still -- but which has catapult and arresting gear and other modifications applied such that it can conduct sufficient fixed wing operations in support of its LHD role but to such a degree that it doesn't fundamentally compromise its LHD role.
That's why I think this ship won't be as large as 60k tons, and why I think it won't have more than one catapult, and also why I think its a flight deck design and overall size and ship design won't be what you expect of an "optimized UCAV carrier" or "optimized aircraft carrier" -- because a ship of that design would likely undermine the ship's ability to conduct its LHD role. After all the RFP still speaks of having a well deck.


Putting it another way, based on the way this ship has been described by the various insiders in the last few days, I see it as "LHD first, UCAV/fixed wing CATOBAR second".
Not "UCAV/fixed wing CATOBAR first, LHD second".
 
This 076 concept would be of high value in a Taiwan scenario as well as both defensive and offensive operations within the 1st island chain. Together with the recent 075s and the new 054A order China clearly sees a high risk of high intensity conflict involving territory in its near seas as soon as the near term. They probably took Steve Bannon and his ilk's talk of waging a hot war on China from a few years ago seriously which has proven prudent given the history and trajectory since of actual foreign policies targeting China.

As a side note I am still not sold on the performance of China's LCAC though.
 

taxiya

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Is this posted here?
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Program XX6 (phase 1) bid (conclusion) announcement

reported in cjdby with detailed lists of contents in photocopy. From phase 1 to 7.
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I've found a text version (Chinese of course), only phase 1
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Summary of interesting contents of the bid: (note the X below are placeholders for sensitive words, it could be different words)
3. XXX尾焰外部通风口之间干涉检查和仿真优化研究, study of interaction between XXX tail flame (jet engine exhaust) and (deck) ventilation door.
56电CXX装置装X结构性能计算及结构强度计算指南structural and strength calculation guideline for Electrical Magnetic something something.80
57电CXX装置装X结构性能计算及结构强度计算指南60
58XXX升降机装X结构性能计算及结构强度计算指南structural and strength calculation guideline for elevator60
59双层甲板结构性能计算与试验及结构强度计算指南140
60车辆甲板、大跨度X库XX及舟TXX结构性能计算与试验vehicle deck, aircraft hanger200
61主要设备基座及加强结构性能计算40
62全船大型通道加强结构性能计算及结构强度计算指南60
63边岛式上层建筑结构性能计算side island deck house60

in Phase 4, there is improvement work on 21MW GT.
in Phase 2, item 25 Electrical Ship Propulsion.
there are also multiple works spreading out in different phases concerning (1000V) MVDC such as circuit breaker (断流器).

So we know it is a ship which is powered by MVDC IEPS, has elevators, has an island deck house on the side with different hangers for aircrafts and vehicles. Sounds like a Amphibious ship, but with a EM catapult? That is a surprise, but also doable and interesting innovation.
 
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