Type 076 LHD/LHA discussion

Bltizo said:

I would be surprised if it did, because at that point you might as well build a full proper CATOBAR carrier.

The potential imo benefits of having a flying wing UCAV CATOBAR capability for a large LHD sized ship is that the endurance and range of a UCAV can make up for the relatively smaller size of the flight deck and reduced flight operations infrastructure (e.g. less catapults, I'd be surprised if it had more than one EM cat tbh) all of which will constrain flight ops tempo compared to a full size carrier.

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The reason you would want a "full proper CATOBAR carrier" is that it carries all the resources necessary to conduct completely independent operations.

But suppose your operating area is the Western Pacific, up to Guam which is 3000km from the Chinese coastline?

An unmanned GJ-11 is supposed to have a 4000km range, so most of the maintenance activities could be offloaded to airbases on mainland China.

Then the Type-76 would primarily function as a lily pad, to refuel and rearm aircraft.
It also removes the requirement for aircrew on the ship.

But it would still be beneficial to have 2 EMALs catapults, if only for redundancy.

I'm looking at the Charles De Gaulle and Queen Elizabeth, which are primarily carriers, but which can also carry a battalion of marines.

Daniel707 said:

Some latest information regarding this Type 076 LHA :

The source in China mentioned that Type-076 will be one hell of a LHA.

The ship will has a displacement of over 60,000 or more tonnes, the largest LHA in the world, even larger than most CVs saved for the super carriers.

And the LHA will equip with EMALS and all advanced UCAVs, very exciting development.

According to the sources, the arrival of Type-076 will not stop the production of Type-072 and Type-075, or future Chinese super carriers, basically we want them all.

Its one hottest topic in China's military BBS forum now

The other hot topic around China now is the confirmation from some reliable sources that China has two stealth bombers projects running at rapid progress, one supersonic and one subsonic.

Credit to @52051


Take it with grain of salt anyway

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Could you even call that an LHA? that basically sounds like a full-blown CV, maybe one with the ability to carry some marines and stuff, but I'll still call it a CV rather than LHA.

dankris said:

Could you even call that an LHA? that basically sounds like a full-blown CV, maybe one with the ability to carry some marines and stuff, but I'll still call it a CV rather than LHA.

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Yes, I think it's more appropriate to call it a CVL.

I think the closest equivalent would be the Charles De Gaulle, which is 40K tons, has 2 catapults and has space for a marine battalion.

If you start making it much bigger, you would be better off with a full-scale carrier.

AndrewS said:

The reason you would want a "full proper CATOBAR carrier" is that it carries all the resources necessary to conduct completely independent operations.

But suppose your operating area is the Western Pacific, up to Guam which is 3000km from the Chinese coastline?

An unmanned GJ-11 is supposed to have a 4000km range, so most of the maintenance activities could be offloaded to airbases on mainland China.

Then the Type-76 would primarily function as a lily pad, to refuel and rearm aircraft.
It also removes the requirement for aircrew on the ship.

But it would still be beneficial to have 2 EMALs catapults, if only for redundancy.

I'm looking at the Charles De Gaulle and Queen Elizabeth, which are primarily carriers, but which can also carry a battalion of marines.

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The benefits of a full proper CATOAR carrier is not only in the maintenance activities and the ability to sustain long independent deployments, but also in terms of the flight deck size and deck crew that are able to support high tempo flight operations.

If we didn't have Yankeesama's post today basically describing the role of the 076 then I agree that there could be some leeway for debate for what exactly this 076 might look like, but his post has basically confirmed that it will be a large LHD with the addition of CATOBAR capability to support fixed wing operations in the form of UCAVs.


For certain missions, sure there's no reason why 076 couldn't operate in synergy with mainland air bases to support more efficient flight operations, perhaps including some maintenance activities of its airwing being done on the mainland.
But this ship will obviously have the ability to operate at greater distances for durations without mainland support as well.


It's already unconventional enough to marry the idea of a large LHD with EM catapults and arresting gear and with flying wing UCAVs.
Tinkering with the idea that 076 would not have its own ability to do maintenance or operate its aircraft independently or something is just adding another layer of complexity that frankly doesn't make sense from a capability and redundancy point of view because it's a massive tethering of dependence where the 076's capability is dependent basically on mainland support.

Daniel707 said:

Some latest information regarding this Type 076 LHA :

The source in China mentioned that Type-076 will be one hell of a LHA.

The ship will has a displacement of over 60,000 or more tonnes, the largest LHA in the world, even larger than most CVs saved for the super carriers.

And the LHA will equip with EMALS and all advanced UCAVs, very exciting development.

According to the sources, the arrival of Type-076 will not stop the production of Type-072 and Type-075, or future Chinese super carriers, basically we want them all.

Its one hottest topic in China's military BBS forum now

The other hot topic around China now is the confirmation from some reliable sources that China has two stealth bombers projects running at rapid progress, one supersonic and one subsonic.

Credit to @52051


Take it with grain of salt anyway

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I take it with more than a little bit of grain of salt, the displacement described is very large and some of the other bits mentioned seem a bit fantastical as well.
Of course we're not completely opposed to fantastical claims -- this entire last 36 hours of the 076 has demonstrated it so -- but preferably provide the original text and/or screenshots of the original statements so we are able to assess for ourselves.

Bltizo said:

I would suspect if they have MVDC IEPS, wouldn't IEPS be a good candidate rather than CODOG or CODAG?
The time in which 076 would be expected to emerge would conceivably have IEPS be mature.

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Yes, I wouldn't discount that possibility. The 076 will emerge at around the same timeframe as 054B, which should also feature IEPS if the rumors of the last 2 years are anything to go by.

So this is basically another case of the good old debate between:
1. Do we stick with simple CODAG/CODOG so that we don't pile so many new and unproven systems onto a new ship class? or;
2. Do we take the plunge and go straight to IEPS?

I'll give the rumors some time to settle. You know the hype train is at full steam when people start producing rumors of a 60k ton "LHD".

Higgle said:

Yes, I wouldn't discount that possibility. The 076 will emerge at around the same timeframe as 054B, which should also feature IEPS if the rumors of the last 2 years are anything to go by.

So this is basically another case of the good old debate between:
1. Do we stick with simple CODAG/CODOG so that we don't pile so many new and unproven systems onto a new ship class? or;
2. Do we take the plunge and go straight to IEPS?

I'll give the rumors some time to settle. You know the hype train is at full steam when people start producing rumors of a 60k ton "LHD".

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Yes, right now I consider yankee's wechat post and the RFP documents to be particularly authoritative pieces of information regarding 076 -- which themselves are frankly revealing a boatload of new information -- however unless it's someone particularly authoritative saying it, the idea of 076 displacing 60k tons and/or the idea of two stealth bombers being in the works is a bit much.

Clearly this 076 thing has stirred up some dust (rightfully so) so it's probably best to wait it to settle

Bltizo said:

I take it with more than a little bit of grain of salt, the displacement described is very large and some of the other bits mentioned seem a bit fantastical as well.
Of course we're not completely opposed to fantastical claims -- this entire last 36 hours of the 076 has demonstrated it so -- but preferably provide the original text and/or screenshots of the original statements so we are able to assess for ourselves.

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Its from one of Chinese member in PDF.
He sometimes put information from Chinese forum to PDF.
From what I see, he is not typical fanboy members. But Deino as moderator there, would know more about him @Deino


IMO, with all that Specifications from RFP Documents, Yankeesama and POP3 mentioned, this Type 076 at least have 50,000 Tonnes Tonnage. (Larger than 40,000 Tonnes Type 075 LHD)
So in my point of view 50,000-60,000 Tonnage range, is not too much.


But yes, let's take it with grain of salt
We cannot conclude anything right now until further info show up

Arienai said:

Yankee wrote a long piece about 076 today:

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Sorry that I don't have time to translate such a long article, but looks time Yankee and his workmate (施佬 and 席亚洲) knew about the existence of 076 for almost a year already.

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Looks like the post has been deleted.

As if there was any additional reason for us to take it more seriously.

====

Fortunately, a copy of it is available here:

Sounds like sort of... PoW(remember its super LHA proposal?), just w/o F-35, but with a proper dock(or we are talking exactly LHA?)
Main concern is that stobar/catobar operations, especially with drones, need some windspeed over deck.
This may very well end up being even more of a carrier than America class is.