Type 076 LHD/LHA discussion

Bltizo said:

First of all, relax.

Okay, now as for the topic of whether 076 can operate fixed wing aircraft like J-XY.... that is a potential yes, but is dependent on 076 having a few key characteristics, e.g.:
- if 076 has a flight deck rated for the same kind of fixed wing operations as a full sized carrier (particularly I'm thinking about the recovery and the force of the recovery of a manned fighter like J-35/J-XY versus a flying wing UCAV)
- if 076's EM catapult is the same as what is fielded on full sized carriers like 003 (e.g.: length) and not a "UCAV optimized variant"
- if 076's arresting gear is also the same as what is fielded on full sized carriers like 003 and also not a "UCAV optimized variant"

If those key characteristics/subsystems are present, then sure, in theory a fixed wing fighter like J-XY can operate from this ship.

... but whether J-XY would operate from it as part of normal operations is another matter.
At the end of the day, this ship is still being described primarily as an amphibious assault ship, with a CATOBAR function secondary.
As far as airborne persistence, range and endurance goes, would operating a complement of manned fighters be better or worse than operating a complement of UCAVs instead? This is all keeping in mind that during normal operations the complement of fixed wing aircraft (UCAVs or manned) would be only a small fraction of the overall airwing which would mostly still be made up of helicopters.


At this stage we have no reason to expect 076 to be a large 60k ton carrier sized ship either -- there will be limits imposed on its flight ops tempo as a virtue of its size, but also of the fact that it will be operating a large airwing of helicopters routinely as well.
However, the PLAN will also be fielding a fleet of proper CATOBAR carriers which whose primary airwing will be made up of J-XYs, and will have the flight deck size and configuration to support a higher ops tempo as well.

So, all that considered, to answer your question as to whether 076 will or won't operate manned fighters like J-XY, my answer is:

We don't know if 076 can operate proper manned fighters like J-XY. I.e.: we don't know if its flight deck, catapults and arresting gear will be rated for manned fighters as well as UCAVs or if they will only be rated for UCAVs.
IF 076's flight deck, catapults and arresting gear allows it to operate proper manned fighters like J-XY, only at that point can we ask "will/won't" 076 operate them. For that answer, I offer a cautious maybe, in the sense that 076 will have the provisions to do so but where during normal operations and deployments, operating a dedicated complement of J-XY might be a suboptimal use of 076's limited flight deck and allocation of J-XY fleet numbers as well, where the J-XY's characteristics is much better suited for a larger proper carrier capable of higher tempo flight ops.

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The flight deck of the Charles De Gaul is only 4 meters longer than that of the LHA-8 yet the length of French vessel was enough to have both the arrestor wires and the catapults needed for operating not only manned fighters but even the Hawkeye.
It is possible that the flight deck of the Type 076 would be even longer than that of the De Gaul therefore while indeed we don't know exactly what kind of catapults it will use but it is safe to say the flight deck length won't be a limitation against operating J-35 , KJ-600 etc...

obj 705A said:

The flight deck of the Charles De Gaul is only 4 meters longer than that of the LHA-8 yet the length of French vessel was enough to have both the arrestor wires and the catapults needed for operating not only manned fighters but even the Hawkeye.
It is possible that the flight deck of the Type 076 would be even longer than that of the De Gaul therefore while indeed we don't know exactly what kind of catapults it will use but it is safe to say the flight deck length won't be a limitation against operating J-35 , KJ-600 etc...

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If the 076 was described as a dedicated medium aircraft carrier then I would agree with you.

But the 076 has been described as an amphibious assault ship and an LHD -- that should still be its primary mission.

Its CATOBAR capability and the fixed wing component of its airwing would naturally therefore be configured and organized in a manner that can best provide support and enable its amphibious assault mission without significantly compromising its ability to do that mission.


The idea that 076 would be intended to operate with manned combat aircraft like J-XY or even fixed wing AEW&C like KJ-600 seems to me like people are focusing too much on this aircraft as a "miniature/medium CATOBAR carrier" rather than seeing it as an "LHD/amphibious assault ship first, with secondary CATOBAR capabilities".

The allocation of displacement, flight deck configuration, and the entire design of the ship would be very different depending on what requirement this ship demands.

AndrewS said:

The presence of a well deck is not necessarily just for amphibious operations.

Suppose the well deck is used to launch and recover Unmanned Submarine Drones?

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Except this ship has been described by insiders as an amphibious assault ship...

Like, I get it everyone is very excited by the idea of this new ship and the fact that it'll have catapults and arresting gear and that it is said to intend to field UCAVs as part of its primary fixed wing complement.


But let's not lose sight of how this ship has been described by the insiders.

Every time they've mentioned this ship it's been in context of it being an amphibious assault ship. However it is an amphibious assault ship with some CATOBAR provisions.
Unless they give us new or updated information suggesting otherwise, I think it is prudent for us to consider this 076 ship as an LHD first and as a UCAV/fixed wing/CATOBAR carrier second.

obj 705A said:

If we were to believe those idiots who say the Type 076 won't operate manned fighters such as the J-35 and instead it will operate only drones and helicopters then that means the Type 076 will be a big flop because even though it may be larger than the LHA-8 and have the latest and greatest catapults it still wouldn't be able to operate manned fighters while America's LHA-8 will be able to do so.

So my only question is.. to any potential idiot who thinks the Type 076 won't operate any manned fighters even though it will have catapults and arresting wires, just what kind of high quality pot are you smoking?

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US LHAs have the job to field/transport a full MEU and assist it with STOVL/VTOL aircraft, combat helicopters and UCAVs. They can do that because they have STOVL air assets (MV-22s, F-35Bs).
China doesn't have anything equivalent, and wont have any time soon (decades). To simulate though the mission that an US LHA carries, it is possible to have a PLAN LHA/big LHD with a small CATOBAR runway component. This would give the ability to operate UCAVs as well as some navalized manned aircraft assets (like the rumoured J-35 in development).

It is absolutely possible that a ship like that might be designed for UCAV operations only (as far as the CATOBAR part is concerned), and it is also absolutely possible that it might be designed for something like the coming J-35. This is not simply a matter of the wires and catapult being there, it is a decision based on the function of the ship. Remember, this is not the primary mission of the ship either (at least when using US doctrine as a guide), the whole idea is to actually transport and field a/the marine force.

My personal hunch is that the rumors we have available are phrased in a way that may mean the following: "The PLAN is trying to get around the problem of not having anything equivalent to a F-35B to field and operate from an amphibious asset. Thus, the PLAN is planning to field an amphibious asset that has a CATOBAR component capable of fielding a F-35C equivalent". I may be well off though..we will have to see how this unfolds.

How many marines is the 076 expected to carry - about 1,500?

Bltizo said:

If the 076 was described as a dedicated medium aircraft carrier then I would agree with you.

But the 076 has been described as an amphibious assault ship and an LHD -- that should still be its primary mission.

Its CATOBAR capability and the fixed wing component of its airwing would naturally therefore be configured and organized in a manner that can best provide support and enable its amphibious assault mission without significantly compromising its ability to do that mission.


The idea that 076 would be intended to operate with manned combat aircraft like J-XY or even fixed wing AEW&C like KJ-600 seems to me like people are focusing too much on this aircraft as a "miniature/medium CATOBAR carrier" rather than seeing it as an "LHD/amphibious assault ship first, with secondary CATOBAR capabilities".

The allocation of displacement, flight deck configuration, and the entire design of the ship would be very different depending on what requirement this ship demands.

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As I said when it comes to "allocation of displacement" the LHA-8 will have a well deck while still having enough space in the hangar area for manned fighters, the Type 076 will probably be larger than LHA-8 so the arguement that there is not enough space in the hangar for manned fighters because of the existence of a well deck for amphibious operations should be layed to rest.

Usually I wouldn't want to repeat things but any way as I said The De Gaul's flight deck is just 4 meters longer than the LHA-8 and the Type 076 flight deck will be at least just as large if not larger than the De Gaul, so this argument that the flight deck won't be long enough for catapults capable of launching manned fighters should also be layed to rest, so now that we know the flight deck of the type 076 is guaranteed to be long enough to contain catapults capable of launching manned fighters and AW&Cs , what exactly will limit the size of the catapult? Is it depth? Is the catapult gonna go down so deep into the body of the Type 076 to the point were it would reach the well deck and hamper it's amphibious assault capabilities? Please don't don't dilly around this question by saying "mission requirements something something.." or by saying "we should wait & not speculate", just answer straight, since it's 100% guaranteed the flight deck is long enough, what is the physical limitation that supports your arguement that the catapult will be just for drones and not manned fighters? Is it depth or what?

And finally regarding the mission of it you said it's an amphibious assault so therefore it won't carry manned fighters? What kind of logic is that? The LHA-8 is an amphibious assault ship and it will have both a well deck and manned fighters, POP3 specifically said the Type 076 will solve the problem of not having STOVL, there is no need to dilly to dally about what are the capabilities of a STOVL fighter, an STOVL fighter can do much more than just strike helpless land targets (hint it can do A2A), it's capabilities in A2A are far much greater than that of a drone, even if a drone is equipped with A2A missiles then it's A2A capabilities would still be a far cry from that of a J-35.

Saying that a drone with A2A missiles can replace not having STOVL (since Pop3 said it will circumvent the problem of not having STOVL) is the same as saying... the Type 076 will circumvent not having STOVL for A2A by having HQ-9 VLS cells. If the last sentence didn't make sense then the first one about drones with A2A missiles solving the problem of not having STOVL should also make no sense.

obj 705A said:

As I said when it comes to "allocation of displacement" the LHA-8 will have a well deck while still having enough space in the hangar area for manned fighters, the Type 076 will probably be larger than LHA-8 so the arguement that there is not enough space in the hangar for manned fighters because of the existence of a well deck for amphibious operations should be layed to rest.

Usually I wouldn't want to repeat things but any way as I said The De Gaul's flight deck is just 4 meters longer than the LHA-8 and the Type 076 flight deck will be at least just as large if not larger than the De Gaul, so this argument that the flight deck won't be long enough for catapults capable of launching manned fighters should also be layed to rest, so now that we know the flight deck of the type 076 is guaranteed to be long enough to contain catapults capable of launching manned fighters and AW&Cs , what exactly will limit the size of the catapult? Is it depth? Is the catapult gonna go down so deep into the body of the Type 076 to the point were it would reach the well deck and hamper it's amphibious assault capabilities? Please don't don't dilly around this question by saying "mission requirements something something.." or by saying "we should wait & not speculate", just answer straight, since it's 100% guaranteed the flight deck is long enough, what is the physical limitation that supports your arguement that the catapult will be just for drones and not manned fighters? Is it depth or what?

And finally regarding the mission of it you said it's an amphibious assault so therefore it won't carry manned fighters? What kind of logic is that? The LHA-8 is an amphibious assault ship and it will have both a well deck and manned fighters, POP3 specifically said the Type 076 will solve the problem of not having STOVL, there is no need to dilly to dally about what are the capabilities of a STOVL fighter, an STOVL fighter can do much more than just strike helpless land targets (hint it can do A2A), it's capabilities in A2A are far much greater than that of a drone, even if a drone is equipped with A2A missiles then it's A2A capabilities would still be a far cry from that of a J-35.

Saying that a drone with A2A missiles can replace not having STOVL (since Pop3 said it will circumvent the problem of not having STOVL) is the same as saying... the Type 076 will circumvent not having STOVL for A2A by having HQ-9 VLS cells. If the last sentence didn't make sense then the first one about drones with A2A missiles solving the problem of not having STOVL should also make no sense.

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Much of what you've written in that post I had already directly addressed in my previous post here:

Specifically -- assuming that 076's catapult, arrestor gear and flight deck are all rated to allow for the full weight of manned fixed wing combat aircraft, I think 076 would in theory be able to launch and recover them.
However I am skeptical that manned fighters like J-XY will be part of its normal complement during most operations.
That is something I want to clarify, just in case you think I'm saying that 076 can't launch or recover manned fighters. My position is that if the requisite subsystems are rated for manned fighters, then 076 can launch and recover them.

The reason why I think the 076 probably won't routinely operate with manned fighters is because of a function of its design, being an LHD.

Part of this comes down to just how big we think 076 will be. I personally think it might approach 50k tons but doubt it will be bigger. This ship is still primarily an LHD after all. If we compare 076 with USN LHDs with well decks like the Wasp class, and then compare it with a similar sized carrier like the Charles De Gaulle, we notice a few things.
- USN's LHDs have a rectangular flight deck that minimally extends out from the primary hull. Also, USN LHDs of course have well decks, and also lack catapults.
- CdG has a flight deck with significant overhangs from its primary hull -- with much more flight deck area than a USN LHD. Obviously, Charles De Gaulle lacks a well deck. However Charles De Gaulle is equipped with two catapults and arresting gear.

When I talk about the difference in allocation of displacement, I'm talking about those differences, not just overall dimensions.
The Charles De Gaulle's flight deck is much larger than the USN's LHDs despite them having a relatively similar waterline beam. That is part of where the Charles De Gaulle's extra displacement goes to (among other things).
At the same time, the much larger flight deck on CdG is what allows it to maintain relatively high ops tempo flight operations which are needed for a CATOBAR carrier of its size.

For the 076, I do expect it to likely be a little larger than the USN's LHD class in terms of dimensions and displacement (again, up to 50k tons).
However, given this ship will still be configured like an LHD with a well deck, I find it very doubtful if 076 will be configured with a flight deck in a manner similar to proper aircraft carriers like Charles De Gaulle with flight deck overhangs extending greatly outside of its primary hull, which would be necessary to allow the ship to function effectively as a CATOBAR carrier for high tempo operations.
For the USN's LHDs that field Harriers/F-35Bs, they also are not well suited for high tempo operations with manned fixed wing aircraft equivalent to a proper flight deck sized carrier -- but Harriers and F-35Bs are also STOVL and not CATOBAR.

So going back to 076's ability to deploy manned aircraft -- that is why I say that I think if it is equipped with the requisite rated catapults+arrestor gear+flight deck to handle manned aircraft, I think it may have the ability to do so.

But I do not think 076 will have the requisite flight deck arrangement and flight deck size size where fielding manned aircraft as part of its complement normally would be worthwhile. After all, let's not forget that the PLAN will have CATOBAR carriers where J-XYs can be employed much more valuably and effectively and be integrated into a far superior rate of cyclic fixed wing flight operations, and if I had a finite number of J-XYs I would rather put those primarily on my big deck CATOBAR carriers instead.

However, drones are a different story, because drones have significantly greater endurance and range compared to an equivalently sized manned aircraft, and in the case of flying wing UCAVs can arguably do the strike and ISR mission as well or better than a manned aircraft, placing certain reduced requirements for your 076's flight ops tempo as well, particularly for longer range missions or long endurance missions like ISR.


.... and not to beat a dead horse, but all of this is assuming 076 is equipped with a catapult and arresting gear and flight deck designed to accommodate manned combat aircraft at their full loads.
It's all very possible that the catapult, arresting gear and flight deck might be downrated. After all, manned carrier fighters at full load weigh over 30 tons, while UCAVs from carriers could weigh significantly less.
If 076 was designed primarily for UCAV/UAV deployment -- and the post written by Yankeesama conveys it as so as well -- then the 076's catapult/arresting gear/flight deck might not even be able to support manned aircraft at heavy loads even if you wanted to.
Finally, Yankee's post also does directly reference the potential for 076 to operate manned fixed wing fighters:
"今儿有很多人问，076能搭载的舰载固定翼有人机咋不说说啊？除非有现成的“中国版F-35B/C”，否则除了为具备强突防能力的隐身无人机服务之外，在优先满足两栖作战任务时，076对有人战机的航空保障能力还是更多立足于“备用”层面"
He speaks of 076 perhaps having the ability to maintain fixed wing manned aircraft, but there and in the rest of his post he omits them as part of the 076's primary fixed wing complement, instead focusing on the drones. That's about as explicit as you can get at this stage.

Taking all of the above together, I just don't see the rationale and evidence to suggest that 076 is intended to operate manned fixed wing aircraft as parts of its normal complement.


If new information comes to light -- if we get evidence that 076 displaces a lot more than we expect (like 60k tons lol), or if one of the insiders specifically mention that manned fighters or fixed wing AEW&C like J-XY and KJ-600 will be operated from 076s as part of their normal airwing -- then sure, that's very convincing.
But right now, the logic and evidence just isn't there for me yet.


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Also, bolding a few words or select parts of your post is fine, but for the sake of etiquette please don't bold entire paragraphs or sections of your post. Take it down a few notches.

I've been emphasizing this entire "076 is primarily an LHD" thing for a few pages now, and I want to explain why this is so important and relevant to the whole matter of what kind of fixed wing complement 076 could have.

The purpose of an LHD and amphibious assault ships at large is to field the aircraft, vehicles and landing craft to enable and conduct an assault from both sea and air.
However, as part of the "enabling" part of the mission, you need to be capable of defeating or degrading relevant defenses that the enemy has in place against your forces.

In a perfect world, your LHD shouldn't need to have its own capabilities to defeat or degrading the enemy's defenses and can instead just focus on the actual assault part of the mission.
However, in real life there is a need to have organic air support for strike to destroy enemy defenses and close air support to support friendly forces. For the strike role in particular, fixed wing aircraft are among the most effective ways of achieving that goal.
Therefore, when looking at an LHD's fixed wing complement and looking at an LHD's capability to conduct efficient fixed wing operations, the goal should be "what is the minimal design accommodation this ship needs to enable a minimal required level of fixed wing operations while maximizing the ability of the ship to conduct its primary the amphibious assault mission" -- not "how do we make this ship as much like a CATOBAR carrier as possible".

Your navy should have proper carriers and other fixed wing air forces that can conduct higher tempo air operations to engage enemy air forces and to provide the bulk of the supporting strike capability to enable your LHDs to do their primary mission which is amphibious assault.

Yes, your LHDs will have some level of fixed wing complement to assist in the overall system-of-systems approach to the overall operation and help to supplement the overall joint force's strike capacity. But that is still not the LHD's primary mission.
Yes, your LHDs can be heavily loaded with fixed wing aircraft and minimal helicopters to provide a role similar to a "miniature aircraft carrier," and for certain mission profiles that kind of airwing loadout might be desirable. But that is not the LHD's primary mission.

So, placing 076 in the above context, the question becomes:
- First: whether 076 can support manned fixed wing aircraft operations from its CATOBAR facilities to begin with?
- Second: if the answer to the above is yes, then whether it would support manned fixed wing aircraft during normal operations, keeping in mind that the ship's design (particularly its flight deck) would reflect that its primary mission is still amphibious assault, and thus would be inefficient compared to proper carriers for the purpose of fixed wing flight operations.

@Bltizo ok just for the sake of argument let us assume it will not operate manned fighters for whatever reason, does China have a maneuverable unmanned fighter aircraft that can be as effective in A2A as an STOVL manned fighter?
After all Pop3 said it will solve the problem of not having STOVL by having catapults, STOVL fighters can do both land attack and A2A combat, so again the question is does China have a maneuverable unmanned fighter aircraft that can be as effective in A2A as an STOVL manned fighter? Because if China doesn't have something like that then that means even before this ship exists the Type 076 has already failed in completely circumventing the issue of not having STOVL for the LHDs.

I'm genuinely asking, I will be happy if China has such an amazing drone that is as capable in A2A combat as an STOVL fighter taking off of an LHD, because if China doesn't have that then the Type 076 is already a big overpriced flop because it can only target helpless land and sea targets (eg: Somali pirates) but can't match an STOVL fighter in A2A.

@Bltizo Also one last thing, since the tonnage of the LHD was increased to at least 50k tonnes from the previous 36k tonnes of the Type 075, and since the flight deck will be modified and will have arrestor wires and catapults, that means the price of this ship will increase significantly and it will be as costly as any other regular aircraft carrier in this tonnage range.
Now does it make any sense why the F would China build such an expensive ship while not giving it the capability to launch manned fighters?

For a smaller cost, the Chinese could have built a proper smaller conventionally powered aircraft carrier the size of the Charles De Gaul so it can operate all kinds of aircrafts not just drones, this would have saved hundreds of millions of dollars, and if they want to transport soldiers this much they could use some of the money they saved to buy one or two Type 071 (a single type 071 costs 200$ million).

If this giant expensive type 076 realy does turn out to have no manned fighters then it will be the biggest expensive flop in the history of Chinese shipbuilding.

Just to make it clear, I bet my left test*cle that the Type 076 will have manned fighters and will be more capable than the America-class in A2A since the J-35 will take off of it with their full load unlike the F-35.