Type 022 Missile Boat

joshuatree said:

Unless we start to see other variants of the 022 or specific support ships to such flotillas, I don't see them venturing further than first island chain. There's enough potential adversaries right there and I think that's the main purpose. They are the low end portion of a hi-lo approach in my opinion.

Even if you had an 022 just stay on station, I would suspect food supplies and human endurance will make this unfeasible.

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That's pretty much where I would expect them to be operating up to.

The main limiting factor on their range will be the fuel, supplies, human endurance, but more importantly, also the reach on land based aircraft sensor support.

There is little point in the 022s going so far out as to be outside the range of land based AWACS etc, as the 022 is clearly designed to operate as a component in a much larger system, instead of some sort of stand-alone weapon.

Their greatest strengths and limitations are from their off-board sensor support.

The PLAN does not need to push the USN all the way back to pearl harbor as the Chinese have no interest in invading the US. All the PLAN would like to do is to keep USN carriers far away from China as to be outside the range of naval strike aircraft.

Land based AShMs cannot do this, but 022s operating up to the 1st island chain can potentially force the USN to keep their carriers clear until they are confident that they have found and dealt with all the 022s running loose.

That in turn gives China vital time to end any conflict quickly and decisively before the US could fully intervene in any local conflict, with Taiwan far and away top of the possible scenarios.

plawolf said:

Perhaps you might want to actually read what I have written as my last post already address most of the points you are raising now.

The 022 does not have the endurance for long range patrol missions like a heavy warship, but if they are only heading out to designated staging areas and then switch off their engines and just wait, they can stay on station for weeks if needs be.

And before you go assuming that the 022 has to be short ranged, you may wish to look up the ranges of similar size and displacement civilian ships. The range my surprise you.

Lastly, its called the pacific for a reason, maybe you would want to look it up. IThe catamaran design of the 022 gives it far greater sea keeping qualities than conventional ships of the same size. In addition, people regularly go out to some of the roughest seas in far smaller boats, just look at what fisherman use on a daily basis. It might not be the most comfortable ride, but its hardly an unacceptably high risk.



I assume you have the ability to read and comprehend basic english, but you are not giving that assumption a great deal of support with clangers like this.

Perhaps you might have missed the the multiple times I explicitly stated that the 022s would be relying on off-board sensors from other friendly platforms to gain targeting information.

But did it not occur to you how stupid it is to suggest that the 022s cannot be used to engage targets more than 25km away when their principle weapon has a range of several hundred km and they have been explicitly mentioned has having engaged targets at long range in exercises?

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I would not want to go to sea in a small couple hundred tonne warship especially in bad weather. The following are pictures that were shared in a mid-ocean storm on a Canadian 4,800 ton frigate:



The ships apparantly dug into a 16m wave, the stern came out of the water and both shafts tripped from over speed. Then the ship did a 39 degree roll and stayed there for a good minute. The sweepdeck was completely under water. Lots of very green sailors that day apparantly, but nothing dangerous.

A while back, one of our smaller 1000 ton patrol ships went across the Atlantic during hurricane season. According to many, the results were not pretty; despite the ship being steel hulled, there were a lot of buckled hull plates on the bottom, and the crew were violently thrown around.

Extended operations in bad weather in small ships is very exhausting and taxing on the crew. Your crew will be completely exhausted after a few days in bad weather in small ships. Size has a quality all its own for crew comfort, despite what you do to make the hull more stable at sea. By far, the most comfortable ships in the Canadian Forces during a storm is the large Protecteur class AOR's, which displace 24,700 tons. Very smooth ride, especially during heavy storms.

^^^ I'm a newbie but how well do ships fight in storms if for some reason they can't avoid it.

no_name said:

^^^ I'm a newbie but how well do ships fight in storms if for some reason they can't avoid it.

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Ships normally do not fare to well in such conditions, especially smaller ones. Most ships will be doing their best to either run for a harbour or a sheltered area, or if they can, try to out-run a storm. But the basic rule in bad weather conditions is that the bigger the ship, the more likely you will get through the storm relatively unscathed. Of course, other factors such as how top heavy your ship is, the beam of the ship, etc, all play in how well ships do in rough weather, but size really does count.

Pointblank said:

I would not want to go to sea in a small couple hundred tonne warship especially in bad weather. The following are pictures that were shared in a mid-ocean storm on a Canadian 4,800 ton frigate:
The ships apparantly dug into a 16m wave, the stern came out of the water and both shafts tripped from over speed. Then the ship did a 39 degree roll and stayed there for a good minute. The sweepdeck was completely under water. Lots of very green sailors that day apparantly, but nothing dangerous.

A while back, one of our smaller 1000 ton patrol ships went across the Atlantic during hurricane season. According to many, the results were not pretty; despite the ship being steel hulled, there were a lot of buckled hull plates on the bottom, and the crew were violently thrown around.

Extended operations in bad weather in small ships is very exhausting and taxing on the crew. Your crew will be completely exhausted after a few days in bad weather in small ships. Size has a quality all its own for crew comfort, despite what you do to make the hull more stable at sea. By far, the most comfortable ships in the Canadian Forces during a storm is the large Protecteur class AOR's, which displace 24,700 tons. Very smooth ride, especially during heavy storms.

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Completely irrelevant. If you think anyone will dream of fighting in conditions that bad, it would be a waste of time to continue this discussion with you.

Where did this extended operations in bad weather requirement come from? Maybe you should read up on what conditions are actually like in the pacific instead of assuming they are worse than the atlantic in bad weather season.

There is also this magic ability some people have developed call weather forecasting which can be used to predict storms, so small ships can be diverted away from them if required.

If there is a weather system bad enough to make operation impossible for 022s, then odds are air operations would also not be possible from a carrier. Everyone take a break and resume after the weather break.

In addition, the 022 is fully enclosed and could probably handle being completely submerged by a big wave for short periods of time. That should also be an indication that it was not designed to simply operate in shallow waters.

plawolf said:

Completely irrelevant. If you think anyone will dream of fighting in conditions that bad, it would be a waste of time to continue this discussion with you.

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Weather is hardly irrelevant where naval and air warfare are concerned.

1 of the most important things for smaller vessels to know is the sea state that they are likely to operate in. The link below gives an idea of what sea states (0-9) mean. If you have sea going experience, you will better appreciate the significance of sea states.



A 1,000 ton vessel in sea state 3 or 4 is a highly uncomfortable proposition (been there, done that). In that kind of situation, the crew of the vessel will be trying to hang on for dear life, instead of trying to find (much less fight) the enemy. However, a 90,000 ton carrier would hardly notice the sea state at all.

In sea state 5 (often at the edge of typhoons), even 5,000 ton vessels will be having problems (imagine throwing up until your gastric fluids come up because there is nothing left in the stomach). This hardly presents a stable platform for firing of guns or missiles (because, the missile may just go way off course due to the roll of the ship).

Again, in sea state 5, a carrier would hardly notice it.
popeye would be able to provide his experience on this.

And that's exactly the thing about weather forecasting. Both sides have it and they will use it to their advantage. Which means the carrier group will wait for the right time to come in under stormy conditions when smaller vessels are having difficulty staying upright.

plawolf said:

Completely irrelevant. If you think anyone will dream of fighting in conditions that bad, it would be a waste of time to continue this discussion with you.

Where did this extended operations in bad weather requirement come from? Maybe you should read up on what conditions are actually like in the pacific instead of assuming they are worse than the atlantic in bad weather season.

There is also this magic ability some people have developed call weather forecasting which can be used to predict storms, so small ships can be diverted away from them if required.

If there is a weather system bad enough to make operation impossible for 022s, then odds are air operations would also not be possible from a carrier. Everyone take a break and resume after the weather break.

In addition, the 022 is fully enclosed and could probably handle being completely submerged by a big wave for short periods of time. That should also be an indication that it was not designed to simply operate in shallow waters.

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1. Completely relevant. You said "The catamaran design of the 022 gives it far greater sea keeping qualities than conventional ships of the same size. In addition, people regularly go out to some of the roughest seas in far smaller boats, just look at what fisherman use on a daily basis. It might not be the most comfortable ride, but its hardly an unacceptably high risk." In bad weather, the size of the ship absolutely matters. That storm in those pictures was uncomfortable for the crew in a large 4,800 tone warship. Imagine how comfortable it would be in a 1,000 or smaller warship that can be more easily thrown around.

2. The Asia-Pacific region is prone to storms and typhoons. It's pretty similar to the North Atlantic in terms of weather in many parts of the year.

3. Weather forecasting cannot be 100% accurate the whole time. There are many times when forecasters predict a storm will go one way, and it goes the other way. Also, sometimes ships simply cannot outrun a storm. Ships such as a USN aircraft carrier can because of the unlimited endurance possible, but other ships need to conserve fuel as they cannot run their engines at full speed for extended periods before they run out of fuel. That means that sometimes they have to button down and ride out a storm.

4. I doubt a 022 will survive in good shape in such a storm. That story I also posted on a 1,000 ton STEEL hulled patrol vessel caught in a hurricane is proof of that. The boat had a lot of buckled hull plates that needed fixing by the time it reached port. Not to mention the various injuries to the crew and that a number of pieces of equipment were damaged during the transit. From what we have seen of a 022 missile boat, its way smaller so that it will be thrown around even more, and that the construction appears to be made of the much weaker aluminum.

I think we're getting ahead of ourselves -- any 022 strike scenario wouldn't have the PLAN sending them into typhoons or anything. It's obvious they weren't designed to be capable of comfortably sitting through storms even with the swath design.
If they were sent for mid/long range (first, second island chain) patrols it'll probably be without a hurricane coming towards them.

(Out of interest, can anyone say what the sea states are like without a storm, say... 2000 kms from the chinese coast? I doubt 022s would be sent any further than that in even the most optimal scenarios)

Bltizo said:

(Out of interest, can anyone say what the sea states are like without a storm, say... 2000 kms from the chinese coast? I doubt 022s would be sent any further than that in even the most optimal scenarios)

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It really depends on the seasons.

I remember that just outside Kaohsiung harbour (southern Taiwan) is sea state 3. This is visible from the waterfront of Kaohsiung city.

Hardly comfortable conditions for small vessels like the 022s.

Typhoon is common around Taiwan and south/southeast china coast