Type 022 Missile Boat
- Thread starter DPRKPTboat
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joshuatree
Captain
I think any escorting of a carrier by a 22 would only be within the first island chain based on the 1000nm range. But assuming if it has that range before needing refueling, I wonder what the crew supply capacity is? It would seem crew endurance would be a bigger factor than the range of the ship. The AMD 350 patrol boat design is interesting. With a helipad, I wonder what possible variations of the 22 could be produced.
Pointblank
Senior Member
Not to mention that catamaran's have awful seakeeping capabilities; they will turn back for base long before that.
williamhou
Junior Member
While jammers and decoys may work to some extent, one can not possibly assume they would work in nearly 100% of the cases. Otherwise there would be no antiship missile. Anywhere. Ever. Yet soviets used them, russians used them, europeans used them, and US use them. If one assumes yj83 can be jammed, then also latest versions of exocet, harpoon etc can be jammed just as well.
Actually, i'd say interception of missiles has gone way up in the last few decades, mainly after the falklands. Otherwise we wouldnt be seeing continuous development of the sea sparrow, we certainly wouldnt see essm being introduced and we wouldnt have the likes of seaRAM installed on various ships. Jammers and decoys may work, but they seem to work less and less, compared to the 60s and 70s.
Actually, i'd say interception of missiles has gone way up in the last few decades, mainly after the falklands. Otherwise we wouldnt be seeing continuous development of the sea sparrow, we certainly wouldnt see essm being introduced and we wouldnt have the likes of seaRAM installed on various ships. Jammers and decoys may work, but they seem to work less and less, compared to the 60s and 70s.
joshuatree
Captain
They could build some Type 22 FAC Carriers as part of a CVBG
A brown water carrier fleet? Funny thought, but an interesting one indeed.
I was just thinking if they built a version of the 022 more inline with the original AMD 350 Patrol Boat design with a heli deck, what if they equipped it with a UAV instead? Or how about even just a balloon with a sensor suite attached? Would that give these boats traveling in a pack more over the horizon range? Would that enable them to operate a little more independently?
joshuatree
Captain
Do catamaran's in general have awful seakeeping capabilities? Or are you just thinking due to the smaller size of the 022? If it's the former, I find it hard to believe since the USN has been experimenting with large cats for sealift capability, JHSV, etc etc.
* Sorry moderators, I don't know how to merge my post with the other one. I decided to respond to this after I already posted the previous one.
Ambivalent
Junior Member
Au contraire Crobato. Jamming is still staying abreast, if not ahead, of modern radars. Modern stealth is achieved by manipulating the electromagnet spectrum to defeat even the most modern radars. If you understand a Bose Wave Radio, apply that idea to jamming. No it is not a trivial task to come up with the hardware and software to recognize all the possible wave forms and generate a signal to counter these. It is, however, doable, but at considerable expense as the price of the F-22 will attest. For now SLQ-32 and Nukla are very adequate for the known threat.
These missile attacks are dealt with in a systematic way, with those missiles not taken care of by jamming engaged progressively by SM-2, ESSM, RAM and finally CIWS. There is no need to engage a missile that is obviously spoofed and a good battle management system like Aegis, but there are others, will assign weapons to missiles not spoofed and ignore those that are much more quickly and accurately than humans could in the heat of battle. So far in actual combat Crobato, your position is not born out.
A single seeker missile will remain very vulnerable to jamming in the spectrum it operates in. What will make jamming more difficult are multi mode seekers, in other words missiles with infrared, active radar and laser seekers all in one package. Now one must have three jammers working one target integrated to give the same false target to each of the three jammers. A little tougher task. Each seeker can be jammed if you have the right equipment, but now you must jam all three seekers successfully and at the same time generate the exact same false target in space for each seeker or the missile's software will probably reject the deception. Again, not impossible to jam, but orders of magnitude more difficult.
Ambivalent
Junior Member
The US Navy experience with FAC's in blue water tends to argue against these being used against them being used with capital ships in combat. While the wave piercing catamaran hull has very good sea keeping abilities and speed when compared to single hulls of identical displacement, particularly their lack of roll, their small size makes them a drag on fast surface forces. Their top speed is slower than that of the best destroyers. Even the best wave piercing cats of that size cannot maintain the speeds of big surface ships in a two meter swell. Increasing sea states degrade the top speed of small FAC's far more quickly than it does for, say, a 6500 ton destroyer. FAC's require daily refueling, a daily supply of fresh water, near daily resupply of food and other consumables, and another ship must provide the FAC's crew with parts, repairs and laundry service. There simply isn't enough room on such small ships for such things. In a big swell they are hard to fight, and life becomes very difficult for the crew. They are just hanging on against the forces of the ocean in a swell that is hardly an annoyance to a destroyer. Heavy seas that would slow down a destroyer significantly would be deadly to such a small FAC. Last, they offer no protection for a carrier. The carrier's air wing can mount a strike at greater range and with less warning to an enemy than those FAC's. The FAC's carry no weapons or sensors that could ward off an enemy air or missile attack. Likewise they don't begin to compare with the strike range of the carrier's aircraft. What is the mission of these in a carrier strike group? If you look at the US Navy, they use MH-60's armed with Hellfire missiles ( Hellfire replaced Penguin for this mission when Hellfire adopted an active radar seeker ) to do the equivalent mission of a FAC.
These FAC's are coastal weapons best employed in places with lots of inlets and islands among which they can hide and strike from. Look hard at an 022. That superstructure has about enough room for the bridge, a radio room and an operations center. Much of it is taken up by the missile system. If it has any living spaces they are in the two hulls, which means it's range must be less than the Omani version of the AMD350 since that version has the entire length of each hull forward of the engineering spaces filled with fuel.
joshuatree
Captain
I agree with your post but I just want to clarify. I am not the one espousing the 022 as an escort in a CBG. Someone else suggested that and I am only saying if that ever came to be a reality, it would at best be within the first island chain boundaries due to factors that you've listed.
I brought up the AMD350 heli pad as a thought on how a squadron of 022s could become more independent. I honestly see these boats as just an augment or to run smokescreen in a Taiwan scenario. Outside of that arena, I see them more as small strike teams against merchant shipping or small skirmishes with neighbors. Let's say, stationing a squad of them at Woody Island for instance. Small size of crew would make them suitable in that environment. Challenges of parts, repair, water, laundry, etc would be resolved with the island base facilities.