Type 022 Missile Boat

A

Ambivalent

Junior Member
joshuatree said:
I agree with your post but I just want to clarify. I am not the one espousing the 022 as an escort in a CBG. Someone else suggested that and I am only saying if that ever came to be a reality, it would at best be within the first island chain boundaries due to factors that you've listed.

I brought up the AMD350 heli pad as a thought on how a squadron of 022s could become more independent. I honestly see these boats as just an augment or to run smokescreen in a Taiwan scenario. Outside of that arena, I see them more as small strike teams against merchant shipping or small skirmishes with neighbors. Let's say, stationing a squad of them at Woody Island for instance. Small size of crew would make them suitable in that environment. Challenges of parts, repair, water, laundry, etc would be resolved with the island base facilities.
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They would operate like WWII PT boats out of a forward base that could provide living quarters, laundry service and repair/support facilities. Or, they could operate off a tender, which might be a converted LST or a bunch of barges lashed together in some protected inlet. From there the craft could strike out on patrols. In confined waters, I'm thinking of something like Ironbottom Sound in the Solomons, they most certainly would represent a threat to big surface ships. In blue water they are at a tremendous disadvantage, loosing all of their advantages to larger and faster destroyers.
 
J

joshuatree

Captain
Ambivalent said:
They would operate like WWII PT boats out of a forward base that could provide living quarters, laundry service and repair/support facilities. Or, they could operate off a tender, which might be a converted LST or a bunch of barges lashed together in some protected inlet. From there the craft could strike out on patrols. In confined waters, I'm thinking of something like Ironbottom Sound in the Solomons, they most certainly would represent a threat to big surface ships. In blue water they are at a tremendous disadvantage, loosing all of their advantages to larger and faster destroyers.
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Indeed, building another barrack on Woody Island to house around 40-45 sailors for a pack of three 022s to be stationed there is not hard at all. Throw in two or three fighters to be based there and viola, poor man's unsinkable carrier in the South China Sea. :D
 
A

Ambivalent

Junior Member
joshuatree said:
Indeed, building another barrack on Woody Island to house around 40-45 sailors for a pack of three 022s to be stationed there is not hard at all. Throw in two or three fighters to be based there and viola, poor man's unsinkable carrier in the South China Sea. :D
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I dunno, a B-2 load of 3000 lb JDAM's would have the coral chunks flying. One good tropical storm surge and it could end up being inundated like Wake Island was. I'm always an advocate of highly mobile systems. It is a place from which China can torment her neighbors in Vietnam and Philippines but hardly survivable against US or similar forces.
 
J

joshuatree

Captain
Ambivalent said:
I dunno, a B-2 load of 3000 lb JDAM's would have the coral chunks flying. One good tropical storm surge and it could end up being inundated like Wake Island was. I'm always an advocate of highly mobile systems. It is a place from which China can torment her neighbors in Vietnam and Philippines but hardly survivable against US or similar forces.
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The Woody Island scenario would strictly be in context to dealing with neighbors, not the USN.

While highly mobile systems are great, even the US still employs island fortresses, Diego Garcia to name one.
 
crobato

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Ambivalent said:
Au contraire Crobato. Jamming is still staying abreast, if not ahead, of modern radars. Modern stealth is achieved by manipulating the electromagnet spectrum to defeat even the most modern radars. If you understand a Bose Wave Radio, apply that idea to jamming. No it is not a trivial task to come up with the hardware and software to recognize all the possible wave forms and generate a signal to counter these. It is, however, doable, but at considerable expense as the price of the F-22 will attest. For now SLQ-32 and Nukla are very adequate for the known threat.
These missile attacks are dealt with in a systematic way, with those missiles not taken care of by jamming engaged progressively by SM-2, ESSM, RAM and finally CIWS. There is no need to engage a missile that is obviously spoofed and a good battle management system like Aegis, but there are others, will assign weapons to missiles not spoofed and ignore those that are much more quickly and accurately than humans could in the heat of battle. So far in actual combat Crobato, your position is not born out.
A single seeker missile will remain very vulnerable to jamming in the spectrum it operates in. What will make jamming more difficult are multi mode seekers, in other words missiles with infrared, active radar and laser seekers all in one package. Now one must have three jammers working one target integrated to give the same false target to each of the three jammers. A little tougher task. Each seeker can be jammed if you have the right equipment, but now you must jam all three seekers successfully and at the same time generate the exact same false target in space for each seeker or the missile's software will probably reject the deception. Again, not impossible to jam, but orders of magnitude more difficult.
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Enough of that. I simply think based on what you post, that you don't know a single thing about jamming and how precisely it works. Spoofing requires certain precise conditions for it to work, which in turn can be counter ridden. Its very mathematical, and hinges on probabilities, meaning you raise the probabilities needed to enact a successful spoof by magnitudes.

What you describe better works on dumber systems like they have on the fifties, sixties to the eighties. There is so much more about modern radio and telecommunications technologies.
 
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A

Ambivalent

Junior Member
crobato said:
Enough of that. I simply think based on what you post, that you don't know a single thing about jamming and how precisely it works. Spoofing requires certain precise conditions for it to work, which in turn can be counter ridden. Its very mathematical, and hinges on probabilities, meaning you raise the probabilities needed to enact a successful spoof by magnitudes.

What you describe better works on dumber systems like they have on the fifties, sixties to the eighties. There is so much more about modern radio and telecommunications technologies.
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Crobato, I make my living with probability distributions. This is how I think. What you are apparently not aware of is how modern countermeasures have advanced well past what you describe. I am not talking about exploiting side lobes, but equipment sensitive enough to detect waveforms and microprocessors fast enough to analyze a wave form and generate a matching wave form that is a specified number of degrees out of synch, canceling the wave completely if necessary. This is real life. You change the electromagnetic spectrum to fit your needs.
 
crobato

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
And you know how canceling works? For it to work, the crest and the valley of the canceling wave must be in perfect offset of the original wave. That means not just a perfectly matched frequency, but also in phase and modulation. If the spoofing wave managed to match the original wave in frequency and wave form, a simple change in phase modulation would still have defeated that spoof.

Let's put it this way. If there are a million pseudo random signals that differ in phase and frequency modulation, and you put all of them into a single frequency not a single one of them would jam each other.
 
P

Pointblank

Senior Member
joshuatree said:
The Woody Island scenario would strictly be in context to dealing with neighbors, not the USN.

While highly mobile systems are great, even the US still employs island fortresses, Diego Garcia to name one.
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Diego Garcia is a very big atoll; 30km2 of land surrounding a large lagoon. Different situation.
 
J

joshuatree

Captain
Pointblank said:
Diego Garcia is a very big atoll; 30km2 of land surrounding a large lagoon. Different situation.
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Different in mission parameters but different how in the physical aspect? It's basically an island fortress serving as an unsinkable carrier which can still be subjected to tropical storm surges.
 
V

Violet Oboe

Junior Member
"If you study the history of naval missile warfare, few if any missiles have ever required the use of a point defense weapon to defeat, deception jamming has worked when it has been employed. Study what happened to the Egyptian and Syrian navies in 1973 and the Iranian Navy during Operation Praying Mantis. The Israelis decoyed upwards of 24 missiles in one engagement using 1973 jammer technology. The Iranian Navy had multiple missiles in the air aimed at our ships, all of which were successfully decoyed. We never needed to use CIWS, and the Iranians were firing Mach 2+ missiles at us inside 25 nm. At least two Exocets fired by the Argentines against the Royal Navy were successfully decoyed by chaff, missing an RN carrier. One of these continued on and locked onto the Atlantic Conveyor, striking that ship and setting fire to it's cargo of aircraft, vehicles and artillery."

Another example of extremely selective interpretation of ´facts´ by Ambivalent and I do not want to harp on the fact that the archaic ´oldtimer´ Chinese Silkworms employed by IRGC were certainly not Mach 2+ missiles!;)
Of course USN was capable to disrupt Iranian Silkworm operations effectively during operation Earnest Will/Nimble Archer/Praying Mantis since USN's ECM was equipped to handle them.

Nevertheless the SLQ-32 ECM suite of USS Stark was completely ineffective as the frigate was hit by two latest batch AM-39 Exocet AShM fired by an Iraqi Mirage F1-EQ5 during nighttime on May 17, 1987. Fortunately the warhead of the first missile did not detonate and the ship did not sink but 37 USN sailors were killed and USS Stark hat to be repaired for the staggering cost of $ 142 million.

After the shock the DoD frantically rushed to obtain the frequency codes of the AM-39 batch delivered to Saddam's Iraq by NATO ´partner´ France and promptly USN ships operating in the Gulf were now able to protect themselves against the Exocet menace. Interestingly Washington pressured Baghdad even after updating USN's electronic defenses to cancel Mirage/Exocet missions in February 1988 after at least three near miss incidents had occurred with AM-39's since September 1987. May be some guys in the Pentagon had indeed second thoughts about ´foolproof´ ECM gadgets protecting against deadly inbound missiles since there is inherently not the slightest margin for error allowed...:D
 
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