Type 022 Missile Boat

Re: Missiles for 2208 catamaran FAC

DPRKPTboat said:

O.K. whatever, the FAC may need aircraft to relay target information, but it doesn't have to be a whole air fleet. You would probably only need one KJ-2000 or Y-8J Skymaster with fighter escort to send target info. And it could do that from a long way away, out of reach from enemy aircraft. Don't forget, the Argentines were able to use their P-2 Neptunes to guide their Super Etendards to our ships during the Falklands war right under our noses, and we never found out about that until the end of the war. I see no reason why the Chinese could not pull this off. And it doesn't take a genius to realise that even a small number of YJ-8s could cause severe damage. And I think this thing is perfectly capable of penetrating the carrier's defences - if the Carrier does launch its aircraft to pursue it, the catamarans could always lure the F-18s towards the main fleet or the Chinese coast so they are in the range of Chinese SAMs or fighters. (Remenber that this is the Taiwan straight, close to the mainland coast, where the 2208 is mostly designed to operate). I'm still convinced that his thing could prove to be a lethal weapon system. I refuse to believe that those CBGs are invinvcible. And everyone knows that the U.S. miltary's achilles heel is surprise or hit and run guerilla attacks. And the 2208 seems to be best suited for those sorts of tactics.

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the argentines could do that is because RN didin't have basic early warning capability. they didn't have AWACS but have to rely on harrier's patrol. in fleet, harriers' number was very limited. the british could 't afford 24 hour partol.

argentines could use low frequency radar to find out when the british harriers are not in patrol. this radar is a huge land-based radar with over-horizon detection capability. ionosphere can reflect more than 80% of this radar's waves. and these long wavelengh radar waves can go through air alomost without being power reduced. so argentines could use this radar to watch RN fleet 600km away. but the accuracy is to bad, it's far from enough to guide missiles. once the argentines know that RN harriers are not in patrol, they will send planes to approach RN fleet to get more exact informations. that's not strange why RN could not find these planes.

RN got more experience during this war. after that, they did rebuild some sea king as AEW copters. argentines can no longer use this tactic any more.

the USN is another situation. they have extremely integrated early warning capability. with 4 professional AWACS and other several dozen planes, USN CBG early warning net can easily cover within 500km area. and those planes don't have to stay above CBG fleet, they could be sent out. this will increase early warning range.

if china can't get air superior, to send any AWACS out is suicide. if china can get, then we don't need FACs like 22xx to attack CBG. fighters and their ASMs are much more effective. US CBG will not get into chinese fighters' range. if you hope 22xx can engage with them in taiwan strait, that's just your wishful thinking. if US CBG really get into chinese planes' range, why don't use fighters to deal with them? there is no point bother to use FACs. fighters' speed is 10 times more than FACs' they are more suitable to fight guerrilla.

MIGleader said:

Big toothbrush, the 2208 facs will most likely travel in packs. They all have an ak-630, which is capable of shooting down an E-2 that is hunting for them. Not to mention that there might be other chinese warships in the region patrolling.

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you are kidding, right? E-2 can detect 22xx more than 200km away(don't think that 22xx's RCS will less than 5 sq.m.) why would it get into ak630's range. even if it get into this range, E-2's patrol altitude is more than 10000m, which is far bigger than ak630's maximal range. ak630 will never have the chance. if china can't control the sky, the other warships will have the same fate as 22xxs', air striked by massive harpoons.

vincelee said:

that's definitely a french cannister.

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notice that it's showed in a chinese official TV programm and it said that this missile is a chinese new generation ASM. i don't think that will have any thing to do with the MM40. it's more likely to be YJ62.

Re: Missiles for 2208 catamaran FAC

that's a ps, or CCTV intentionally did not air footages of the real missile housing chamber. When CDF comes on again, I'll try to find the original.

well, not from CDF, but from google.



that should be the origin of the picture.

now I think it's certain that I'm right.

vincelee said:

that's a ps, or CCTV intentionally did not air footages of the real missile housing chamber. When CDF comes on again, I'll try to find the original.

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really? but looks not like psed. the background ship is 052 lvhu class. any professional photoshop users here? please show this pic's code parameter.

vincelee said:

well, not from CDF, but from google.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

that should be the origin of the picture.

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not this one. the view angle of missile is different. please try to find another one.

this time looks like real psed. any one can show the first photo's code?

Re: Missiles for 2208 catamaran FAC

I KNOW THE ANGLE IS DIFFERENT. I'M NOT BLIND, NOR STUPID. but THAT is the platform. And do note the second picture.

Re: Missiles for 2208 catamaran FAC

i know. it could be psed. thanks for your input.

Re: Missiles for 2208 catamaran FAC

big toothbrush said:

anybody's seen this before? any thought?

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and compare it to the french launcher....


we can clearly point out the differences...unless anyone could provide a picture of the missile launchers of the new HORIZON class FFGs??

Re: Missiles for 2208 catamaran FAC

big toothbrush said:

if china can't get air superior, to send any AWACS out is suicide. if china can get, then we don't need FACs like 22xx to attack CBG. fighters and their ASMs are much more effective. US CBG will not get into chinese fighters' range. if you hope 22xx can engage with them in taiwan strait, that's just your wishful thinking. if US CBG really get into chinese planes' range, why don't use fighters to deal with them? there is no point bother to use FACs. fighters' speed is 10 times more than FACs' they are more suitable to fight guerrilla.

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Actually, using aircraft is more of a direct attack, since they can be detecetd by radar. China doesn't posses any stealth aricraft. I think its more likely that Chinese bombers would be detcted by AWACS than the catamarans. And they would make mincemeat for Aegis destroyers. Now that would be suicide.
And it would also be suicide for the USN to send AWACS chasing the FACs. As MiGleader said, the FACs would not be the only chinese warships out there. Once the catamarans have launched their missiles, they can speed back to an escort fleet of air defence destroyers, which will protect them from air attack. This fleet would be hodden outside enemy radar range. And they will probably be 051Cs (thuis ship will have been mass produced by this time) so their long range SAMs should hold off any enemy aircraft that gets to close.
The intention of an FAC attack is to harass the enemy, not destroy him completely in a direct sea battle. These boats would speed stealthily to a target, fire the missiles from a long way, then quickly retreat.
Getting back to the topic, that photo does look different from the pictures of the french exocet launchers, bui it doesn't look like the 2208 launcher. If it was, it would be covered by radar cross section features and covered. This one looks like some unstealthy steel frame, the knid of thing you'd expect to see on a Luda.









Compare the launchers on this to that photo. Spot the difference? That launcher was definetly already fixed to a ship, since you cna see an exercise going on in the background. But whatever ship it is, I don't think its the catamaran.

Re: Missiles for 2208 catamaran FAC

I'm going to say this one last time:

these are exocet launching cannisters.

Re: Missiles for 2208 catamaran FAC

DPRKPTboat said:

Actually, using aircraft is more of a direct attack, since they can be detecetd by radar. China doesn't posses any stealth aricraft. I think its more likely that Chinese bombers would be detcted by AWACS than the catamarans. And they would make mincemeat for Aegis destroyers. Now that would be suicide.
And it would also be suicide for the USN to send AWACS chasing the FACs. As MiGleader said, the FACs would not be the only chinese warships out there. Once the catamarans have launched their missiles, they can speed back to an escort fleet of air defence destroyers, which will protect them from air attack. This fleet would be hodden outside enemy radar range. And they will probably be 051Cs (thuis ship will have been mass produced by this time) so their long range SAMs should hold off any enemy aircraft that gets to close.
The intention of an FAC attack is to harass the enemy, not destroy him completely in a direct sea battle. These boats would speed stealthily to a target, fire the missiles from a long way, then quickly retreat.

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if china could control the sky, there would be no US planes could work normally. without AWACS support, how could their aegis find the over-horizon targets? they only have ship-based radars that are available then. chinese planes just need to fly low altitude trajectory and approach US CBG through their radar dead angle, then spy-1 radar only can detect them within 50km. our planes could launch ASMs more than 50km away easily. we can shoot them, they can't even find us. it would be suicide for the US CBG indeed.

by the way. even with E-2 support, SM-2 still can't hit over-horizon targets. because it's a semi-active tracked missile. SM-2 doesn't have active seeker. it only can be illuminated by SPG-62, which is ship-based fire control radar. no air-based flatform can instead SPG-62 to do this job. US new generation SM-6 is active tracked, but it still can't hit over-horizon targets without AWACS and datalinks.

i'm surprised that you expect 22xxs could launch their missiles in a battle with CBG. they would mostly be tracked 600km away and destroyed 500km away. i realy don't see these boats would have chance to approach CBG close enough for missile launching. as for other chinese ships. even 051C and 052C come together, they would have the same fate as 22xx. the reason is same as how chinese planes rape aegis ships. conclusion, who controls sky, who wins the war.

Re: Missiles for 2208 catamaran FAC

big toothbrush said:

the argentines could do that is because RN didin't have basic early warning capability. they didn't have AWACS but have to rely on harrier's patrol. in fleet, harriers' number was very limited. the british could 't afford 24 hour partol.

argentines could use low frequency radar to find out when the british harriers are not in patrol. this radar is a huge land-based radar with over-horizon detection capability. ionosphere can reflect more than 80% of this radar's waves. and these long wavelengh radar waves can go through air alomost without being power reduced. so argentines could use this radar to watch RN fleet 600km away. but the accuracy is to bad, it's far from enough to guide missiles. once the argentines know that RN harriers are not in patrol, they will send planes to approach RN fleet to get more exact informations. that's not strange why RN could not find these planes.

RN got more experience during this war. after that, they did rebuild some sea king as AEW copters. argentines can no longer use this tactic any more.

the USN is another situation. they have extremely integrated early warning capability. with 4 professional AWACS and other several dozen planes, USN CBG early warning net can easily cover within 500km area. and those planes don't have to stay above CBG fleet, they could be sent out. this will increase early warning range.

if china can't get air superior, to send any AWACS out is suicide. if china can get, then we don't need FACs like 22xx to attack CBG. fighters and their ASMs are much more effective. US CBG will not get into chinese fighters' range. if you hope 22xx can engage with them in taiwan strait, that's just your wishful thinking. if US CBG really get into chinese planes' range, why don't use fighters to deal with them? there is no point bother to use FACs. fighters' speed is 10 times more than FACs' they are more suitable to fight guerrilla.




you are kidding, right? E-2 can detect 22xx more than 200km away(don't think that 22xx's RCS will less than 5 sq.m.) why would it get into ak630's range. even if it get into this range, E-2's patrol altitude is more than 10000m, which is far bigger than ak630's maximal range. ak630 will never have the chance. if china can't control the sky, the other warships will have the same fate as 22xxs', air striked by massive harpoons.




notice that it's showed in a chinese official TV programm and it said that this missile is a chinese new generation ASM. i don't think that will have any thing to do with the MM40. it's more likely to be YJ62.

Click to expand...

Back to the point as where whoever controls the skies, who ever wins. If china has two dozen su-30s flying, and half a dozen dstroyers in the region, dont you think thats what the CSG's radar operators would be looking at? The operators wouldnt be trying to search out obscure dots on the radar. If some destroyers can use stealth to look like tugboats, I dont see why the 2208 catamaran cannot make itself look like a very small fishing boat, maybe even life raft.

If there are su-30s in the sky, most of the f-18s in a carrier strike group would be sent to destroy them. When the f-18s come too close to the mainland though, they fall under the envolope of s-300 fire. With no fighters, a CSG is powerless to destroy even the smallest of vessels. Last time I chcked, the Harpoon has range of 130 km, while the yj-83 had a range of 200.