Gokdogan firing test with a nice birds eye view of the trajectory:
Turkey Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
- Thread starter Jeff Head
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The amount spoken of is 60 TB3 and 9 Akinci. Should be worth at minimum $1 billion.
Other agreements were singed on cooperation and license production on munitions (SAM, AShM, BM etc) and AWACS and simulators.
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Republikorp and its founder Mr Norman Joesoef is.. well tbh problematic. last time the company was to produce 122mm rockets for our RM-70, which going nowhere. Also the deal is still MOU Phase. So not hoping much, particularly in financing. Like Does Turkish bank or financial institution is finally willing to provide competitive export credit ? Remains to be seen.
AWACS one is kinda strange tho. Like Does Turkey develop radar or something for AEW platform before ?
Nice spin. First blaming your side...
...to then turn around question the Turks are wiling to fund the buy?
Indeed they have no experience in operating AWACS, nor in developing appropriate radars, C2 systems, consoles and the like. Nor have they experience in replacing the ESM system on an AWACS. The same is said about their aerospace capabilty. They think they can leapfrog into stealth platforms lmao amirite?
BTW how's Elang Hitam going? Have you paid your dues for the KF-21 yet?
If you know how our arms procurement works..it's a very legit question. Like our PPA and Rafale deals are backed by French Banks. We only need to prepare something called RMP (Rupiah Murni Pendamping) This serve as installment which about 7.5% of the worth of the contract. Unless somehow the Turkey offered alternative scheme. This is a very valid question.. Russians did for example thus why we were able to maintain our Flankers somehow despite sanctions.
When you selling arms to a country Expect that you must always be ready to lend financial assistance or be ready to provide one. Our own PTDI offered their aircrafts to African nations but guess what, some countries there do express interest but our banks are unable or cant provide a long term export credit.
The quickest way the deal would be happening (even skipping the Ministry of Finance's Blue Book and Green Book) Is perhaps Turkey willing to Accept payment in Indonesian Rupiah, is this gonna happen ? Doubt it. USD still the prime currency and we are kind short of it tbh.
I asked the same question to South Korea back when our DSME-1400 deals. They delivered but not without some teething issues. Thus you see the deal for the 2nd tranche of the sub got in limbo. I am always in skeptical side in our arms procurement. Why do you think i do radar range modeling or RCS estimates ? We were lucky not losing another sub. Tho unfortunately the Boat are now mostly in the pen.
If you feel that i doubt Turkish achievements then you are gravely mistaken.
Elang Hitam is ded, sad. KF-21 is hopefully be settled next year. Considering we lowered our contribution. But i expect no delivery of prototype. Purchase is perhaps a new deal.
You should be skeptical yourself tho particularly on the "Joint Venture Company" part.. which by nature each participant have 50:50 contribution. If you know our KF-21 problem.. then you should know we are kinda not the best country for Joint Venture Company. Maybe we were back in 70's as our JV with CASA.. which yield CN-235. But today ? Not so much.
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In case people still wonder on my skepticism.. the easiest way is to visit our Ministry of Finance Website. It has everything you need to know on how we manage our foreign loans.
It pretty much applies to arms procurement. From that page, for sake of interest in respect of arms dealer you may go straight to this part
Titled "Pinjaman KSA/LPKE" Where :
KSA (Kredit Swasta Asing) or Foreign Private Creditor is a private financer institution while LPKE (Lembaga Penjamin Kredit Ekspor) or ECA (Export Credit Agency) Is an institution which may related to the lender country e.g Rosoboroneksport or Rostech which to provide the financing scheme for the deal. That page also contains all the Banks and financial institutions that usually help with financing our arms deal. You can find BNP Paribas and Credit Agricole there. Also Russian and Chinese bank as well as US. So it's natural i am asking where Turkish Bank or Financial institutions ? Because who do you think will finance the deal ?
The most important part is this diagram :
Basically before you sign any form of Legally binding contract using Foreign loans.. You need to get your activities submitted first, then be put in "Blue Book" which contain 5 years Foreign Loan allocation Plan, then after you ensure funding is available.. it will be put in GB or "Green Book" .. Then onto List of Activities which Treasury will award Determination of Source of Funding Document or PSP (Penetapan Sumber Pembiayaan).. then select the Agency to finance the Deal. is it ECA or Private Creditor.. then contract is signed.. then you negotiate loan agreement.. This loan agreement thingy is where External shit can affect your deal like say CAATSA. Or Trump doesnt like you using USD to do the deal. What kind of Geopolitical or financial assistance Turkey can provide ? Will Turkey budge to US like how Israeli budge to US and decided not to deliver the A-50I's radar ?
It those things one need to think ? But guess what those "news channel" hype the shit up without a single thought or even remember how our Anka Deal goes nowhere or Su-35 deal goes nowhere, because no Lenders. Means no contract signed or Loan Agreement cannot active. Thus no goods got delivered. All the "wah--wah." and glitters died out in few days
That's the bureucracy side.. can it change ? sure. gonna take more things to happen tbh.
And now on the AWACS deal which clearly hit on the nationalistic side.. Let me share stories on Elang Hitam UAV development which goes into Limbo... One of the factor was cooperation with a Spanish company to develop Flight control system.. Turned out this Company has NO Experience developing flight control. What kind of insanity is that ? You still wonder why i am skeptical on AWACS thingy. Harimau was a great one as FNSS was a legit company with experience and means, it's just sad we ordered so few of those. Also the DSME 209.
It pretty much applies to arms procurement. From that page, for sake of interest in respect of arms dealer you may go straight to this part
Titled "Pinjaman KSA/LPKE" Where :
KSA (Kredit Swasta Asing) or Foreign Private Creditor is a private financer institution while LPKE (Lembaga Penjamin Kredit Ekspor) or ECA (Export Credit Agency) Is an institution which may related to the lender country e.g Rosoboroneksport or Rostech which to provide the financing scheme for the deal. That page also contains all the Banks and financial institutions that usually help with financing our arms deal. You can find BNP Paribas and Credit Agricole there. Also Russian and Chinese bank as well as US. So it's natural i am asking where Turkish Bank or Financial institutions ? Because who do you think will finance the deal ?
The most important part is this diagram :
Basically before you sign any form of Legally binding contract using Foreign loans.. You need to get your activities submitted first, then be put in "Blue Book" which contain 5 years Foreign Loan allocation Plan, then after you ensure funding is available.. it will be put in GB or "Green Book" .. Then onto List of Activities which Treasury will award Determination of Source of Funding Document or PSP (Penetapan Sumber Pembiayaan).. then select the Agency to finance the Deal. is it ECA or Private Creditor.. then contract is signed.. then you negotiate loan agreement.. This loan agreement thingy is where External shit can affect your deal like say CAATSA. Or Trump doesnt like you using USD to do the deal. What kind of Geopolitical or financial assistance Turkey can provide ? Will Turkey budge to US like how Israeli budge to US and decided not to deliver the A-50I's radar ?
It those things one need to think ? But guess what those "news channel" hype the shit up without a single thought or even remember how our Anka Deal goes nowhere or Su-35 deal goes nowhere, because no Lenders. Means no contract signed or Loan Agreement cannot active. Thus no goods got delivered. All the "wah--wah." and glitters died out in few days
That's the bureucracy side.. can it change ? sure. gonna take more things to happen tbh.
And now on the AWACS deal which clearly hit on the nationalistic side.. Let me share stories on Elang Hitam UAV development which goes into Limbo... One of the factor was cooperation with a Spanish company to develop Flight control system.. Turned out this Company has NO Experience developing flight control. What kind of insanity is that ? You still wonder why i am skeptical on AWACS thingy. Harimau was a great one as FNSS was a legit company with experience and means, it's just sad we ordered so few of those. Also the DSME 209.
Is the problem Indonesia or Korea? Do we really know what's the real deal?
Us mostly. It boils down to lack of political will. This affect financing of the program. The KF-21 RnD budget is coming from our State Budget (APBN) This needs the political will to make the allocation. Which sadly not in the mind of the earlier President and our current one atm.
One compromise we seek was attempting to use Foreign loan, but this is against the treasury policy.. thus why we ended up reducing our contribution. We just not patient enough for RnD.
A fitting response to your unfounded pessimism: