Turkey Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
The basic premises were: I have a will to fight, a large but obsolete army, a useless navy, and a moderately competent air force. What can I do with those resources?

Again, I checked all the directions and found no answer. What were the Turks thinking? The only valuable asset was of no use to them. It would be great over the steppes of Central Asia but Turkey is not in Central Asia. Turkey is sitting over the Turkish Straits.

And this is where I had a very cinematic holy sh*t moment: material culture determines material outcomes but material culture is determined by preceding material conditions.

Or speaking plainly: Turkey is not a land power. Turkey is a land bridge power!

Just as Turkic people are born in the saddle, Turkish people are born straddling a narrow strip of land with a narrow strip of water in the middle which connects two landmasses and two bodies of water and served as a pivot point of history for centuries. If there is one person to understand the value of the right amount of space in the right place it will be a Turk.

I looked at the map again and saw the matrix code running.
  1. Central Asia is not a contested theater but Russia's back yard.
  2. The plans were made before 2014 so they are based on a different assessment of Russia's potential not yet affected by sanctions
  3. Russia must overextend itself in as many conflicts as possible for Central Asia to open for rival power projection
  4. Russia must believe it can benefit from involvement or be forced to intervene to facilitate (3) therefore weakening of NATO and EU is necessary
  5. Because of Russia's use of historic propaganda, revisionism, irredentism and Orthodoxy Ottoman rhetoric is effective as Russian imperialism was built on anti-Ottoman policies more than anything else.
  6. Despite (5) Russia must not perceive Turkey as overtly hostile or overtly competent power.
  7. All actions leading to creation of a Caucasus link must not be the result of Turkey's actions.
2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war occurs at the height of the pandemic, which cripples Russia's ability to concentrate its military. The war makes no sense. Artsakh is an impoverished backwater with no value or Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan is only recently capitalising on energy revenues. Azeris don't want to fight in that war - which is made evident by the emerging videos showing mercenaries doing most of the fighting. Many groups are identified as veterans from Syria.

Yet Azerbaijan suddenly decides it needs to right historical wrongs done to it by Armenia and just by accident they include establishing of the Zangezur corridor to Nakhchivan.

The January 2022 unrest in Kazakhstan didn't happen by accident either, and resulted in completing the removal of Nazarbayev, Russia's man, from influence as well as initiating transition to a more parliamentary system which will ensure that FSB networks won't have the same influence as they did previously.

The 2022 invasion of Ukraine is just an added bonus. Note that Putin meets with Aliyev and signs a number of economic deals to secure his cooperation but the war doesn't go according to his plan.

Possibly it was intended to demonstrate Russia's willingness to defend its sphere of influence not just to the US. I suspected that it may be an attempted flex at China. But both US and China need Russia intact. The only country that doesn't is the one that can use Turkic cultural influences.

Current state of CA land forces by TMB2021:

AzerbaijanTurkmenistanUzbekistanKazakhstantotal
tank bde/rgt-2114
mech bde/rgt4811326
inf bde1911-21
air bde--246
MBT4406503403501780
IFV20010302706002100
APC4808702603401950
40km MLRS60130100100390
90km MLRS606-672
SP ART1004080240460
ART2304202001501000

57 brigades and regiments, ~1800 tanks, ~4000 personnel carriers, ~1500 artillery pieces. Yet at the same time they have ~150 obsolete fighters combined. It's clear what is missing in the picture.

Currently Russia can't muster sufficient force to counter the above but they would have air supremacy that would prove disruptive and destructive. Any effective counter-measure - as the one I suggested earlier - will forever alter the balance of power in the region. Russia doesn't have enough airframes or resources to sustain the fleet and train the pilots to counter air power projection in three theaters - Europe, Central Asia and Pacific. It never had enough to field little more than symbolic (less than 140 fighters) presence in the Far East and the Central Military District has only two regiments (48) of MiG-31s and one regiment (36) of Su-34s as well as six regiments of S-400.

The consequence of losing ability to project power in CA are dire for Russia. Not only is the interior of the country threatened but the low density of transport infrastructure threatens to sever the regions east of Urals from the core of the country (Moscow/Volga).

This is a reduced image of 2010-2030 infrastructure project - blue is waterways, yellow/green and pink are railways and roads.
Russia-2010-2030-project.jpg

The distances involved here will benefit whoever has long-range drones with sufficient payload to disrupt transit. Consider that the distance from Samara (blue dot at Volga) to Chelabinsk (blue dot east of Urals) is ~850km. Similar distance exists between Samara and Voronezh (dot) or Samara and Moscow (dot) where some of air force from western military districts is based. Those distances combined are at the maximum range of Russian fighters. There is no easy way to continuously maintain air cover. Not even with aerial refueling which Russia utterly lacks. Russia has no strategic depth against an attack from Central Asia because it developed its infrastructure as strategic depth against attack from the north.

Persistent surveillance and presence is key and in case of conflict involving such unmanned systems Russia would have to physically convoy all transit east of Urals to avoid interdiction. Aerial transit doesn't have the capacity and it too would be threatened. E.g. Akinci cruises at 300km/h but the missile will be fast enough to shoot down a transport aircraft flying at twice that speed.

This is effectively a siege that can end in only one way - the regions under siege will redirect resource flows to other areas and that will inevitably fracture the federative system in an area containing 1/3 of Russia's GDP and 1/4 of population. Even if Russian authority would survive it would be symbolic afterward.

WW2 in the Pacific was won by USN strangling IJN logistics. Any war in Siberia will be won in the same manner.

Let's not forget that if China wanted to weaken Russia it would not do so directly. Supporting Turkey in that effort would be ideal because it would not only weaken Russia but also provide Turkey with incentives to distance itself from the US.

And no, nukes don't matter because what Ukraine showed is that you can shoot at targets in Russia even if you don't have nukes. Russia's entire pillar of deterrence that it so carefully constructed after 1991, mostly with eyes on the US, has been invalidated by actors below threshold of nuclear escalation. Which goes to show many other things related to nuclear blackmail and doctrine and fearmongering but this is not the place to discuss it.

And with that the elaboration of the ideas is complete. We will see if any of my predictions come through or if it was just a glitch in the system. Take care.
 

CasualObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
@MarKoz81 Your brainstorming is for the most part hit and miss. You do have -some- valid points but you also happen to contradict them a lot. Hence I don't know where to begin.

You said that you're "interested in the complexity of systems." How can you study that without having a correct understanding of said systems?

SDF is focused on China so that may lead many people (especially keyboard warriors who argue emotions rather than logic) to assume that what characterises Chinese modernisation should characterise others. Not true

I think you just happened to describe your problem. You've been on this site for a while and it seems your POV has become too much PLA and Pan-Pacific oriented. While I do enjoy your posts in the Ukr war thread, this is probably why you are having trouble understanding Turkey's position.

Likely Turkey's aim is to develop domestic and sovereign capabilities for when it becomes necessary. But it is not Turkey's aim to modernise land and naval force at present. Rapid modernisation would require either abandoning technological sovereignty or completely changing structure and doctrine.

Incorrect. The reason is there wasn't enough localization of high tech subsystems before. For example the lead ship of the I class was supposed to have like 70% localization rate but it is now ~90%. The radar, CIWS, VLS, 76mm naval gun, ASIST deck-handling system, etc. were all supposed to be imported. However, due to last minute embargos from "NATO-allies" all of these had to be indigenously developed. This slowed down the ship building and also took a lot of time to develop. As a result of these hardships the lead ship became technologically more advanced but could only enter service quite recently. It has also received a further order of +4 ships (8 in total) in December. That's why the Navy could only now replenish its ageing ships.

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Turkey's geography is very secure. The reason for the rhetoric is different. It is instrumental to shaping the expectations and reactions of society to whatever the political class intends to do.
I don't know which answer to give to you without sounding harsh.

Is that why Turkey is simultaneously at odds with the US, Russia, France, Iran, Israel, Syria and Saudi Arabia; struggling to survive?

Never mind that, why do you think many civilizations have collided over Anatolia in the past?

This is me being confidently objective: Turkey has never been this weak ever since the Second World War.

All this is irrelevant considering that Turkey has limited logistical capability to replenish ships at sea and no area defense - neither sufficiently strong radars nor sufficiently long-ranged missiles. Therefore it is relegated to coastal duties where air defense can be provided by air force - like it was case with PLANAF. Submarines, even AIP, don't provide game-changing capabilities as far as Turkey is concerned. All of it is just replacing old ships with new ones but not fast enough so as to transform the condition of the fleet. Which is fine as long as you don't intend to stay near the coast which really is all Turkish navy can and should do on its own.

ROTFL.

Sefine_DIMDEG_TCG_Derya_A_1590_Tur_Def_0c5042c21f.jpg

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F4dD89rW4AAzYia.jpeg

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Look, you do have good intentions but the reason why you're unablento understand is because you lack the information. It is fine by me if ypu don't want to; but, you do have to do your homework if you want to understand any topics.

Here's my diagnosis:
I think you just happened to describe your problem. You've been on this site for a while and it seems your POV has become too much PLA and Pacific oriented. While I do enjoy your posts in the Ukr war thread, this is probably why you are having trouble understanding Turkey's position.

Anyway, the points I made on my first post still stand. Therefore I don't feel the need to reply again.

Have a nice day.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
a will to fight, a large but obsolete army, a useless navy, and a moderately competent air force. What can I do with those resources?
I think you severely underestimate the Turkish capabilities. Their Navy is pretty formidable in its own region and they have had success exporting their ships to other countries already. As for the Air Force and the Army a lot of the programs to make their own hardware have been delayed thanks in part to Western sanctions. But even there you can already see some results after like a decade of investment. Particularly the missiles. Be those long range artillery, air defense missiles, you name it. Their major weakness right now seems to be combustion engine technology. Either gas turbines or diesel engines.

In theory they can license the diesel engines. As for the gas turbines, they can probably just buy the Ukrainian industry wholesale at this point. Its biggest client, Russia, is gone. They can't sell to the Chinese. The West obviously won't buy anything. So Ukraine basically have Turkey and India left as customers really.

The January 2022 unrest in Kazakhstan didn't happen by accident either, and resulted in completing the removal of Nazarbayev, Russia's man, from influence as well as initiating transition to a more parliamentary system which will ensure that FSB networks won't have the same influence as they did previously.
Yet the guy who is in power in Kazakhstan right now instead of him was secured in place thanks to CSTO troops, mostly Russian troops, and used to be a diplomat in China. So what gives.

I disagree with your concept that Nazarbayev was "Russia's man" in the first place. He had Kazakhstan's own interests into mind and those include not having bad relations with your large neighbor up north. Kazakhstan pursued policies to both increase their distance from Russia and improve the government's own resilience. One example is them moving the capital to Astana. It is further away from the border of the country and in a way more defensible position. Policies were put into place which meant the Russian ethnic population keeps leaving Kazakhstan in droves. They also keep increasing their industrial self-reliance and complicating Russia's access to Baikonur.
As for the new leader he is pretty much the same. Just answers to different interests in Kazakhstan.

Possibly it was intended to demonstrate Russia's willingness to defend its sphere of influence not just to the US. I suspected that it may be an attempted flex at China. But both US and China need Russia intact. The only country that doesn't is the one that can use Turkic cultural influences.
This is simply not true. The US and UK sponsored the Chechen rebels for example. The US would like nothing better than further break apart the Russian Federation similar to the Soviet collapse by agitating local minorities and creating splinter movements.

Currently Russia can't muster sufficient force to counter the above but they would have air supremacy that would prove disruptive and destructive.
Uzbekistan is the largest of those countries in Central Asia and their army is totally obsolete. Kazakhstan's army has also clearly been developed more for constabulary duties than combined arms operations. Which is a good thing for them really. They wouldn't stand a chance in a war with Russia anyway so why bother. Money saved in the military is money they can spend on improving their own civilian economy. In case of conflict Russia would just blockade the Caspian Sea and prevent any chances of their supply from the West.

Any effective counter-measure - as the one I suggested earlier - will forever alter the balance of power in the region. Russia doesn't have enough airframes or resources to sustain the fleet and train the pilots to counter air power projection in three theaters - Europe, Central Asia and Pacific. It never had enough to field little more than symbolic (less than 140 fighters) presence in the Far East and the Central Military District has only two regiments (48) of MiG-31s and one regiment (36) of Su-34s as well as six regiments of S-400.
The Russians have literally hundreds of Su-27 and MiG-29 aircraft in the boneyard. These could be moderately upgraded and put into service if necessary. Their problem is lack of pilots because they lack modern trainer aircraft.

The consequence of losing ability to project power in CA are dire for Russia. Not only is the interior of the country threatened but the low density of transport infrastructure threatens to sever the regions east of Urals from the core of the country (Moscow/Volga).

This is a reduced image of 2010-2030 infrastructure project - blue is waterways, yellow/green and pink are railways and roads.
In case of actual conflict with Kazakhstan, Russia would just invade the north and annex it to establish a cordon sanitaire. Kazakhstan would lose at least a third of their land area I think.

WW2 in the Pacific was won by USN strangling IJN logistics. Any war in Siberia will be won in the same manner.
This kind of plan wouldn't work without getting either Iran or China on your side really. Which is highly unlikely. If you use circuitous routes around Pakistan and Afghanistan you wouldn't supply much of anything. And like I said the Russians can just block the Caspian Sea.

Let's not forget that if China wanted to weaken Russia it would not do so directly. Supporting Turkey in that effort would be ideal because it would not only weaken Russia but also provide Turkey with incentives to distance itself from the US.
Fat chance of that. Only if China was suicidal really.

And no, nukes don't matter because what Ukraine showed is that you can shoot at targets in Russia even if you don't have nukes. Russia's entire pillar of deterrence that it so carefully constructed after 1991, mostly with eyes on the US, has been invalidated by actors below threshold of nuclear escalation. Which goes to show many other things related to nuclear blackmail and doctrine and fearmongering but this is not the place to discuss it.
This is a really dangerous way of looking at things. The Russians consider the Ukrainians to be part of their own ethnic makeup. That is why they try to minimize civilian losses. You can bet they wouldn't do this to NATO. If war happened it would likely escalate really quickly. And what we have seen in the conflict is that Russia can make huge amounts of cruise missiles like the Kh-101. Which is basically a nuclear capable cruise missile with 2500km range.
 

CasualObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
Turkey reminds me of Brazil in the 1960s. Massive growth fueled by massive money printing. It ended up with decades of hyperinflation and economic depression.

For Brazil it was a massive construction binge which included building a new capital in the middle of nowhere. Back then Brazil wanted carriers too.
20240212_100913.jpg
 
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