Trade War with China

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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
No ZTE got the latest ban not because they did business with Iran, they got banned because they didn't fall through with its agreement with US government to punish some of their employees. You can argue that US government uses this as an excuse, but the fact that ZTE provide such excuse shows how naive and stupid their top management has been, after paying a billion dollar and fired its CEO! There is no explanation for this other than total incompetence!
I get your point before the "but" and I agree with you.

But (my but ;)), do you think the US intelligence is stupid? Do you think you can always out-smart them, being one step ahead of them? You may not fall at the place where ZTE has fallen, but can you be smatter than ZTE and US intelligence and never fall? Nobody can. So similar event like ZTE will happen in the future to someone else. Then what is all these harsh and tough all about?
 

SilentObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
To answer that, think about brothers. People born after 1980s may not have brothers or sisters. But people like me born in the 1970s do. We play together with other kids. When there was a fight, we covered each other's back, even one of us made mistakes, we don't laugh or point fingers at our brothers like other kids did. We go home together with swelled face and lips, then we may argue who made the fault. That is brotherhood.

The negative consequence of publicly blaming each other is the breaking of the brotherhood, the moral, the spirit of fighting for each other. Who else would you expect to watch your six? Your brother, nobody else. Here goes the old Chinese saying "打虎亲兄弟,上阵父子兵". ZTE is the brother, no matter how bad he performed, he is your brother. That's all we should care.

The (Chinese) media focused on the lack of domestic substitute in the ZTE case. It is not focused on ZTE being "stupid" or "break US law".

It is internet BBS that started the "shit throwing". Let me tell you what I read. First ZTE was blamed for back stabbing Huawei in the 3GPP conference votes, then it turned out to be Lenovo (Motorola) voting against Huawei, then it turned that Huawei was not really the owner of the proposed "short code" scheme but rather Huawei choose to back it because the true inventor (an Egyptian) does not have strong industrial backer, therefor Huawei would be in a better position of patent layout.

Lastly, never trust media easily, not the Chinese mass media either. You have heard about the practice among Chinese media "water army", "paid article", "report ransom"? Same thing as fake news in the west.
You made some good points.

It seems like to me that Huawei is popular amongst Chinese due to its grasp on some key technologies while ZTE is more of a systems integrator or vendor of foreign technologies. The whole ZTE event seems to have blown up and caused many firms in China to rethink its supply chain.

I don't really pay attention to mass media, its not a good source of unbiased information. The small news outlets are also often filled with garbage but some industry specific websites offers some good insights.
 

SilentObserver

Junior Member
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Is Trump making ZTE or China great again?:cool::po_O
Through this move Trump showed China that it is highly reliant upon the US for its high tech industries and also show good will. Sort of like saying "you need me but I am going to play nice and help you out". It also alerted China to its reliance upon American industry, which will prompt larger investments to reduce reliance but won't see the fruits for some years. This is while Trump steps up protectionism in the high tech sector. In addition he is trying to make a breakthrough in the Korea peninsula which needs China cooperation. Trade and Korea are the biggest issues between US and China. This will provide Trump some political capital with China for his next moves. The administration after Trump might not enjoy all the good will he has left behind.

Maybe Trump will use this capital with China against Iran in the short to mid term. In the long run I think Trump definitely wants to continue large volume trade with China but will want to maintain a technology gap as to not be direct competitors and erode American leadership. I believe Trump when he says he is a "free trader" but he wants to frame it to be in his favour. The long term geopolitical legacy he wants to leave behind is the distancing of China and Russia and this begins with the incentives created by the political, economic, and military climate. A few months back China and US signed MOU on investing $250 billion into the US with $80 billion into the oil and gas sector, primarily in Virginia and Alaska. This serves as a lure (since its only a MOU) all while the smokescreen of disputes arises.

The main conjoining forces between China and Russia are energy, capital, and geopolitics. Russia is energy rich, capital poor and needs to focus on Europe and Middle East. China is energy poor, capital rich (relatively), and wants to focus on the Koreas, Japan, and South China Sea. The environment the US can create is where China gets a large portion of its energy from America (oil and gas investments), using China's dollar to develop, and resolve some of the tension in East Asia (China also improving ties with Japan but still has American bases). Russia would be in limbo condition or increased pressure for many years with decreasing leverage and appeal to China. This applies pressure on Russia indirectly. The US cannot stop all cooperation between China and Russia (ex. CR 929 jet) but I'm sure the US will do something on the industrial front to lure more of China's market and capital.

In the second term or the next administration, ties with Russia would likely be mended or attempted to be mended through Europe. Organically Europe and Russia would cooperate but disputes arises as a result of American meddling thus this is a case of killing with a borrowed sword. America doesn't get hurt during sanctions but Europe and Russia does and ties would be relatively easy to mend. Russia now with slightly less appeal to China by this point, Trump would use renegotiated terms with Russia to lower its bargaining power over NATO and creating balance of power between Europe and Russia. Thus creating the conditions for building a leaner and more modernised American military and rebuilding of the American homeland.

Trump ultimately is America first, America being the continental nation state. He is playing tactically around the world to negotiate the conditions for rebuilding of American industries in the homeland and on someone else's dollar (European money as well). Using geopolitical leverage for economics and to create a more secure environment to divert funds and other resources. The first term would likely be placing the geopolitical and economic pieces, the second term he would start to harvest. For the harvest to happen smoothly he needs to create a suitable geopolitical climate for America lasting many years. Sort of like the situation China created before opening up in 1978 and what North Korea is trying to do. Trump won't see all of the fruits of his grand negotiation if it comes to fruition, its the foundation for the subsequent administration(s).

I think Trump is trying to pull China relatively closer to US and Russia to Europe but before that he needs to frame it in his favour through these negotiation tactics. This solves from Trump's perspective, Obama's geopolitical mistake while luring money from China and Europe for the rebuilding of America.
 
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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Through this move Trump showed China that it is highly reliant upon the US for its high tech industries and also show good will. Sort of like saying "you need me but I am going to play nice and help you out". It also alerted China to its reliance upon American industry, which will prompt larger investments to reduce reliance but won't see the fruits for some years. This is while Trump steps up protectionism in the high tech sector. In addition he is trying to make a breakthrough in the Korea peninsula which needs China cooperation. Trade and Korea are the biggest issues between US and China. This will provide Trump some political capital with China for his next moves. The administration after Trump might not enjoy all the good will he has left behind.
LOL No, man, No. China's not stupid; you don't cause a problem and then offer to solve it to show "good will." Nobody would fall for such a basic negotiation tactic typically used on children. He showed China that US tech is unreliable and must be replaced by domestic technology. Then, likely lobbied by domestic American tech firms showing him the immense damage that his ban has caused his own nation, he decided that ban isn't working out as intended (at least it doesn't inflict more damage to China than the US), and now he wants it gone. But how without looking like he's covering a blunder? Oh, by phrasing it as if he's trying to save Chinese jobs in a last ditch effort to at least get some good will out of the whole fiasco. China won't buy it. No good will earned; you would need to have less than 10 functioning brain cells to think that Trump wants to "help China out." Use US tech for as long as absolutely needed while developing the domestic tech sector (like China is doing). When domestic options are ready, dump US suppliers like the arrogant prudes deserve.
I think Trump is trying to pull China relatively closer to US and Russia to Europe but before that he needs to frame it in his favour through these negotiation tactics. This solves from Trump's perspective, Obama's geopolitical mistake while luring money from China and Europe for the rebuilding of America.
If Trump thinks that he can pull China closer to the US by threatening it with a trade war, then his mind is really beyond his years. Firstly, people don't get closer to you after you threaten them. Secondly, China cannot be pulled closer to the US as these 2 countries are the world's main rivalry. No force on earth can pull these 2 nations together because every move they make is naturally aimed at becoming stronger than the other. The only thing that can pull China and the US together is if they fight side-by-side against an alien invasion... that or if Russia becomes the most powerful nation on earth and starts to bully China and the US.
 
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SilentObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
LOL No, man, No. China's not stupid; you don't cause a problem and then offer to solve it to show "good will." Nobody would fall for such a basic negotiation tactic typically used on children. He showed China that US tech is unreliable and must be replaced by domestic technology. Then, likely lobbied by domestic American tech firms showing him the immense damage that his ban has caused his own nation, he decided that ban no longer serves US interests (at least it doesn't inflict more damage to China than the US), and now he wants it gone. But how without looking like he's covering a blunder? Oh, by phrasing it as if he's trying to save Chinese jobs in a last ditch effort to at least get some good will out of the whole fiasco. China won't buy it. No good will earned; you would need to have less than 10 functioning brain cells to think that Trump wants to "help China out." Use US tech for as long as absolutely needed while developing the domestic tech sector (like China is doing). When domestic options are ready, dump US suppliers like the arrogant prudes deserve.
Well, wishy-washy behaviour has to be publicly justified some how or it would look terrible. Trump won't come out and admit that, so he has to frame it like it was calculated and doing China a big favour for political capital. I think on the surface China would play along to save him face. Behind the scenes China's strategic direction is pretty certain.

If Trump thinks that he can pull China closer to the US by threatening it with a trade war, then his mind is really beyond his years. Firstly, people don't get closer to you after you threaten then. Secondly, China cannot be pulled closer to the US as these 2 countries are the world's main rivalry. No force on earth can pull these 2 nations together because every move they make is naturally aimed at becoming stronger than the other. The only thing that can pull China and the US together is if they fight side-by-side against an alien invasion.
He wants money and geopolitical interests. Call it extortion or whatever you like.
 
now I read
U.S., China working to get ZTE back into business: Trump
Xinhua 2018-05-14 04:07:14
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U.S. President Donald Trump said on Sunday that Washington and Beijing are working to get Chinese telecom equipment maker ZTE, which is suffering from a U.S. exports ban, back into business.

The two sides "are working together to give massive Chinese phone company, ZTE, a way to get back into business, fast," said Trump in a tweet.

The president added that he has instructed the U.S. Commerce Department "to get it done."

ZTE, one of the world's largest telecom equipment makers, was forced to suspend its main operations worldwide after the U.S. Commerce Department prohibited American companies from exporting products to it in mid April.

Following the exports ban, ZTE said it was making active communications with relevant parties to seek a solution to the issue, and stressed that it attached significant importance to export control compliance.

The Chinese public and government are greatly concerned about the fate of the company, which hires some 70,000 people across the globe. The incident also triggered in China extensive discussions about the necessity and urgency to develop a reliable domestic chip industry.

During the latest China-U.S. economic and trade consultations held in Beijing in early May, the Chinese side lodged "solemn representations" with the United States over the ZTE case.

The U.S. delegates responded that they "attach importance to" China's stance and will report it to President Trump, according to a spokesperson with the Chinese Ministry of Commerce.

The ZTE ban is also expected to cause sizable losses for the companies' key American suppliers in both revenues and jobs.

According to an April statement by California-based optical gear maker NeoPhotonics, the company's estimated annualized revenue with ZTE and its supply chain partners would have grown up to 5 percent without the exports ban. Business with ZTE and its supply chain partners accounted for approximately 3 percent of NeoPhotonics' total revenue in 2017.

As the fourth-largest mobile phone supplier in the U.S. market, ZTE said it has estimatedly supported some 130,000 high-tech jobs in America.
 

SilentObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
LOL No, man, No. China's not stupid; you don't cause a problem and then offer to solve it to show "good will." Nobody would fall for such a basic negotiation tactic typically used on children. He showed China that US tech is unreliable and must be replaced by domestic technology. Then, likely lobbied by domestic American tech firms showing him the immense damage that his ban has caused his own nation, he decided that ban isn't working out as intended (at least it doesn't inflict more damage to China than the US), and now he wants it gone. But how without looking like he's covering a blunder? Oh, by phrasing it as if he's trying to save Chinese jobs in a last ditch effort to at least get some good will out of the whole fiasco. China won't buy it. No good will earned; you would need to have less than 10 functioning brain cells to think that Trump wants to "help China out." Use US tech for as long as absolutely needed while developing the domestic tech sector (like China is doing). When domestic options are ready, dump US suppliers like the arrogant prudes deserve.

If Trump thinks that he can pull China closer to the US by threatening it with a trade war, then his mind is really beyond his years. Firstly, people don't get closer to you after you threaten them. Secondly, China cannot be pulled closer to the US as these 2 countries are the world's main rivalry. No force on earth can pull these 2 nations together because every move they make is naturally aimed at becoming stronger than the other. The only thing that can pull China and the US together is if they fight side-by-side against an alien invasion... that or if Russia becomes the most powerful nation on earth and starts to bully China and the US.
To be honest the ZTE policy reversal is a consequence of Trumps negotiating tactic. This was a tactical failure but his strategy remains. I see that China was pushing for Made in China 2025, this event only pushed the entire Chinese nation to see how important the initiative is. I am expecting greater investments from both the public and private sectors. Trump didn't get much with ZTE but only helped Made in China 2025.
 
To be honest the ZTE policy reversal is a consequence of Trumps negotiating tactic. This was a tactical failure but his strategy remains. I see that China was pushing for Made in China 2025, this event only pushed the entire Chinese nation to see how important the initiative is. I am expecting greater investments from both the public and private sectors. Trump didn't get much with ZTE but only helped Made in China 2025.
you try to sound as if China won, as in Apr 19, 2018
Yesterday at 9:22 PM
now
U.S. will hurt itself with action on ZTE: MOC
Xinhua| 2018-04-19 13:18:19
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
This is pretty standard American ‘negotiation’ tactics of first creating the problem, and they offering to ‘resolve’ it as a ‘concession’ to basically try and get real Chinese concessions for nothing.

The only difference is that historically, past American presidents have gone with the typical mafia ‘nice xxx you got there, shame for something to happen to it’ (mainly because America and China are so mutually dependent economically that actually setting something on fire burns America as much as it does China - which was done by design by China as a safeguard against exactly this kind of behaviour) routine, or picked geographical issues like Taiwan/SCS/Diaoyu islands/Korea/human rights etc, where it has limited exposure to set the fire.

Yes, ZTE might have violated American sanctions, but so do companies all over the world all the time. Almost always, a pay off in the form of a fine is sufficient. The tech world was taken aback by the extremeness of the US justifice department move against ZTE, so you can bet your bottom dollar the initial decison was politically motivated.

What Trump did, in typical act first think later fashion, is set a serious fire that is now causing real damage to American as well as Chinese interests, and is only now belated realising he probably shouldn’t have done that, and is looking for a face saving way to try and put it out to limit the damage done to American interests by trying to make it look like he is trying to do China a favour in an act so transparent and awkward, it is deserving of a rasberry award.

China may play along on the surface, but as has already been noted, this move will absolutely reinforce Chinese determination to not only press firmly ahead with Made in China 2025, but also massively expand on that.

The big difference is that this Trump move has hammered home to all Chinese companies how exposed they could be to America whims and political brinkmanship, so private Chinese companies are now going to be pushing for MIC2025 as hard, if not harder, than the Chinese government. So rather than having the Chinese government pushing and dragging Chinese companies to invest in technological self reliance, like a parent trying to get unwilling children to brush their teeth and do their homework, Chinese companies are now motivated like never before to not suffer a similar fate to ZTE.

I would also not be surprised if strategically targeted cyber espionage activities start picking up once more. Especially if America seriously tries to follow through with its attempt to stop Chinese companies from acquiring advance tech firms through legitimate sales and transfers. After all, if America and the West doesn’t want to play by the rules of capitalism any more, why would they expect China to not respond accordingly?
 

SilentObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
you try to sound as if China won, as in Apr 19, 2018
Not trying to take a side. Just analysing the repercussions of this event. China did not win, it's an infinite game. I don't look at this as America won or China won.

In a limited sense, we cannot consider China gained anything tangible until there is tangible changes in its industrial system. China only gained some elements to facilitate a change but the change didn't occur yet. As the plot progresses, we might see both nations getting a lot out of this exchange.
 
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