Trade War with China

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tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
China policy makers and advisors have misread the situation and unprepared for current trade war.

Populism was already rise 9 yrs ago with Romney openly calling for trade war against China. But China policy makers hang around with Paulson and those Wallstreet Panda huggers way too long and misread the situation. They though tough words come and go.

Had they correctly anticipate the current trade war 9 yrs ago, they would be much better prepared with soy bean fully self sufficient and also semiconductors,
Government would mandate Chinese firms back then supplying gears for state and government using domestic chips. And also promoting domestic equipments.

They didn't do enough.

And right now, desperation moves across the board.

thumbs down for lacking of anticipation.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
China policy makers and advisors have misread the situation and unprepared for current trade war.

Populism was already rise 9 yrs ago with Romney openly calling for trade war against China. But China policy makers hang around with Paulson and those Wallstreet Panda huggers way too long and misread the situation. They though tough words come and go.

Had they correctly anticipate the current trade war 9 yrs ago, they would be much better prepared with soy bean fully self sufficient and also semiconductors,
Government would mandate Chinese firms back then supplying gears for state and government using domestic chips. And also promoting domestic equipments.

They didn't do enough.

And right now, desperation moves across the board.

thumbs down for lacking of anticipation.

I would not say that. I think the Chinese knew this was coming. Hence the internal purges of the Communist Party ever since Xi entered power and his request several years ago that the PLAN be prepared to invade Taiwan by 2020. There are other soy bean suppliers. Chinese farmers have been headed to the Russian Far East for several years to farm soy beans too. China has invested a lot of money into semi fabs like SMIC for a long time. It is just that due to a combination of sanctions on machine tools and a lack of internal chip design talent these are not properly developed yet. Since at least 5 years China has spent significant amounts of money to build more leading edge semi fabs, attract foreign leading edge fabs, and bring back to China semi conductor designers who trained abroad, namely, in the USA. I think it is too early to tell how the chip situation will play out. Unlike what happened with Japan in the 1990s, China has a potentially larger consumer market for semiconductors than the USA.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
China policy makers and advisors have misread the situation and unprepared for current trade war.

Populism was already rise 9 yrs ago with Romney openly calling for trade war against China. But China policy makers hang around with Paulson and those Wallstreet Panda huggers way too long and misread the situation. They though tough words come and go.

Had they correctly anticipate the current trade war 9 yrs ago, they would be much better prepared with soy bean fully self sufficient and also semiconductors,
Government would mandate Chinese firms back then supplying gears for state and government using domestic chips. And also promoting domestic equipments.

They didn't do enough.

And right now, desperation moves across the board.

thumbs down for lacking of anticipation.

I don't think they are unprepared They have been spending money to built fab from 5 years ago
The problem is Chinese industry they don't want domestic product They are too complacent and greedy as well as lack of foresight
They don't want to spend money building and designing chips instead they took the easy way out buying it from the US and the rest
Not all of them though. Huawei is wise enough to spend money on Chips design
I don't believe it is desperate time You are just to young to remember the Soviet China breakup 50 years ago
At that time yeah it is desperate time China was poor and still agriculture country where 80% of the population live in the country side and per capita income of $300/yr The industrial base was weak. China is isolated economically, politically etc

Compare to that time China is better prepared now. The economy is much stronger now They have built up industrial base including semiconductor industry. What they don't have is the leading edge technology But even that China is closing the gap very rapidly
I even say this is blessing in disguise Now everybody is building Chip factory and China has semiconductor equipment manufacture that can satisfy those demand Not the latest tech but 14 nm technology should be no problem. Most application only need that technology
Nah I wouldn't worry
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
I don't think they are unprepared They have been spending money to built fab from 5 years ago
The problem is Chinese industry they don't want domestic product They are too complacent and greedy as well as lack of foresight
They don't want to spend money building and designing chips instead they took the easy way out buying it from the US and the rest
Not all of them though. Huawei is wise enough to spend money on Chips design
I don't believe it is desperate time You are just to young to remember the Soviet China breakup 50 years ago
At that time yeah it is desperate time China was poor and still agriculture country where 80% of the population live in the country side and per capita income of $300/yr The industrial base was weak. China is isolated economically, politically etc

Compare to that time China is better prepared now. The economy is much stronger now They have built up industrial base including semiconductor industry. What they don't have is the leading edge technology But even that China is closing the gap very rapidly
I even say this is blessing in disguise Now everybody is building Chip factory and China has semiconductor equipment manufacture that can satisfy those demand Not the latest tech but 14 nm technology should be no problem. Most application only need that technology
Nah I wouldn't worry

man, you given them too much credit they dont deserve.
Usually when things happened , most likely surprise them and get caught with their pants down!

look at this, when ZTE incidence happened, Chinese government for the first time have a procurement for domestic chips, which should happen long long time ago.


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clearly, they aren't prepared. Only reacting when bad things happened. It's a trend happens again and again.

I dont think they prepare for trade war at all, those investment you mentioned are likely for made-in-China 2025 initiative.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
Ok, for those so called wisemen in this forum, time to put the money when your mouth is.
predict
1)if there's a Trump-Xi meeting in Nov
2)What type of concession Xi willing to make? as Trump expect alot.

let's hear it.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
man, you given them too much credit they dont deserve.
Usually when things happened , most likely surprise them and get caught with their pants down!

look at this, when ZTE incidence happened, Chinese government for the first time have a procurement for domestic chips, which should happen long long time ago.


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


clearly, they aren't prepared. Only reacting when bad things happened. It's a trend happens again and again.

I dont think they prepare for trade war at all, those investment you mentioned are likely for made-in-China 2025 initiative.
The problem with your thinking is that it's very shallow and emotional. China evolved from a nation that couldn't use a computer to program a machine to one with fighter jets, rockets, supercomputers, etc... It went from an inconsequential economy to an economy that is either first or second in the world depending on nominal or PPP. This happened in an incredibly short period of time and it's still happening now. It happened in the face of an unsupportive Soviet Union and a hostile West, which had every advantage on China. It doesn't happen by being caught with your pants down all the time!

One example is that the police exist, therefore, every day, you live in safety and confidence. One time, you get robbed and the police weren't there to help you (ZTE incident, for example) and you call the police completely useless. That's a common mistake that many people make and one that you clearly have made as well.

Now that there are some new challenges, one needs to understand that 1. nobody anticipated someone like Trump being "elected," not any US ally nor even the US itself (but maybe Russia did LOL) and 2. there are no simple solutions to the challenges before us. People who think that there are are just too stupid to fully understand the problem, and these people might blame the more well-informed for not making an obvious choice while that choice was known to be not viable all along to those who truly understand.

As is common in life, people who think that everyone else in higher places are idiots and that they themselves are geniuses are actually of far inferior intellect. If they were smarter, they would pipe down.

Ok, for those so called wisemen in this forum, time to put the money when your mouth is.
predict
1)if there's a Trump-Xi meeting in Nov
2)What type of concession Xi willing to make? as Trump expect alot.

let's hear it.
It's ok to entertain this for fun but to provide this as a challenge is just stupid. It's like saying I'll roll a pair of dice and if you're so smart, you tell me what the sum will be! Trump is extremely erratic and the smartest people know that he cannot be reliably predicted. Smart people can be wrong for the right reasons and stupid people can be right for the wrong reasons; the more erratic, the greater the chance this will happen. The more you know, the less you know; heard of that? It applies so well here. Stupid people think there is an answer to prove intellect while smart people know, you just can't know until it happens.

But if we were to do this for fun's sake, I would say, whether they'll meet is a toss-up, 50/50, but Xi will make no meaningful concessions at all. (Most people know that offering him concessions doesn't make him give you anything back at all; it makes him ask for more concessions.) The biggest thing that might happen is that Trump asks Xi behind closed doors to give a little something so he can claim progress to his people and he'll give back in other ways, and that might alleviate the conflict. But I doubt it. I'm guessing that the most likely outcome is that nothing happens and they remain locked regardless of whether or not they meet.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
Oh , come on, don't play stupid.
Trump or no Trump , writing in the wall, as China economy gets bigger and ready to surpass US, US conservative to go offensive to bring China down ti size. it's the unspoken rule of 60%, anytime a country gets to 60% of US economy size, US will attack that country.

There's No win-win situation for both parties like what China is hoping, thats not what you should expect from a hegemony.

No such thing as a win win. Thats totally pipe dream
 
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ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
But if we were to do this for fun's sake, I would say, whether they'll meet is a toss-up, 50/50, but Xi will make no meaningful concessions at all. (Most people know that offering him concessions doesn't make him give you anything back at all; it makes him ask for more concessions.)
Never negotiate with a terrorist, you only encourage more acts of terror.

The biggest thing that might happen is that Trump asks Xi behind closed doors to give a little something so he can claim progress to his people and he'll give back in other ways, and that might alleviate the conflict. But I doubt it. I'm guessing that the most likely outcome is that nothing happens and they remain locked regardless of whether or not they meet.
I agree with this prediction, and I would have put the likelihoods at 10%/90% a few weeks ago. But US stock markets have been getting smacked around recently and Trump likes to use them as his barometer, so he might be more pliable going in to Argentina and the odds that he caves are marginally higher.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Oh , come on, don't play stupid.
Trump or no Trump , writing in the wall, as China economy gets bigger and ready to surpass US, US conservative to go offensive to bring China down ti size. it's the unspoken rule of 60%, anytime a country gets to 60% of US economy size, US will attack that country.

There's No win-win situation for both parties like what China is hoping, thats not what you should expect from a hegemony.

No such thing as a win win. Thats totally pipe dream
What makes you think that China's hoping for a win-win? Just because they said it? LOL That's what everyone says in public, especially when addressing the other side! What else can they say? "We never liked you; we're gonna beat you and you're gonna watch!"? LOL That's naive. In a competition for global power, win-win is not possible and China is under no illusion that it is. Just because China doesn't use people like Navarro and Kudlow who go out and announce that they're trying to inflict damage onto their rival doesn't mean China's not fighting the same fight; they just understand that there's no advantage whatsoever in talking like that.

If you are under the impression that the US is aggressive while China just wants everyone to be friends and prosper together, that is probably the root problem with your analyses.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
man, you given them too much credit they dont deserve.
Usually when things happened , most likely surprise them and get caught with their pants down!

look at this, when ZTE incidence happened, Chinese government for the first time have a procurement for domestic chips, which should happen long long time ago.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


clearly, they aren't prepared. Only reacting when bad things happened. It's a trend happens again and again.

I dont think they prepare for trade war at all, those investment you mentioned are likely for made-in-China 2025 initiative.

The Chinese government at one time demanded that a certain amount of production was made according to Chinese standards which did not require licensing foreign patents. They tried this in the cellphone and the video sector. For example with the TD-SCDMA standard which is used by China Mobile. However it was hard to keep up with more modern standards in terms of performance plus those devices couldn't be sold elsewhere but in China since no one else used that network standard. Any cellphone standard which is not defined by the ITU is basically dead in the water. The leading LTE modem designer is Qualcomm. Guess who the Chinese government recently sued and forced to manufacture chips in China?

That happened before the ZTE incident.

Also, Huawei has their own chip design people. The problem with ZTE is that it is a small company which has to use 3rd party chips like those by Qualcomm. Also there are no decent memory chip manufacturers in China yet.
 
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