Trade War with China

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manqiangrexue

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Did Trump Just Blink? U.S. Wants Talks Before China Trade War Escalates
With Wall Street bracing for an imminent and major escalation of Trump tariffs on China, President Trump may be having second thoughts. The
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before imposing a new round of tariffs.


The news that the Trump administration is reaching out to China for new talks, not vice versa, makes the future of the China trade war much less clear. This could be just a timing change influenced by the political calendar. Yet it's possible that the Trump administration is legitimately concerned that a full-scale China trade war could cause serious economic damage without bringing Beijing to its knees.

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Come on, Trump, don't disappoint your old angry voters. Be hard! Be uncompromising! Last time you invited China and this time you propose to China again??!! Have you no shame? Let China have a turn... whenever they may feel compelled ;). Don't give up, Trump! I wanna see how this ends for you when China, EU, Canada, and Mexico (and North Korea LOL) all tell you to pound sand, not that China needed any help as things are.
 
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Central planning is not necessarily bad, in fact all the successful east Asian economies following the development economics model instituted central planning to a large degree. It's only when central planning gets excessive that it's bad. There are certain parts and sectors of the economy that are more efficient when centrally planned, and other parts will be more efficiently guided by the market, thus optimal economic development revolves around balancing the two. Exactly where this balance lies also depends on the overall development level of the economy, generally developing economies can benefit more from central planning than more advanced economies. This is why the Soviet model worked great early but stagnated later on. Ultimately the Soviets realized this later on and instituted Perestroika, but by then it was too little too late.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
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China suspending US companies license in China force Trump restart talk

I think it's an effective strategy.
Going forward, China should suspend all US companies businesses in China.

Trump will be very concerned.
 

canniBUS

Junior Member
Registered Member
I m not believe it, I KNOW that the central planning is extremely inefficient compared to the market economy.
The difference is 2-3 times in difference.

Economic planning is possible, however usually it serves as indicator, not target , but the PLANNED ECONOMY and ECONOMIC PLANNING are two completely different thing.

Anyway, planning the activities centrally for a 1000 person company has (-minus)20-50% efficiency difference compared to low level decision making/resource management distributed among the employees.

It is one of the reason why the US companies are more efficient, the workers over there has huts to stand up and make independent decisions.
Utter idealist nonsense. If markets so efficient why don't capitalist enterprises use market systems internally? Have employee teams bid and build competing products against other teams. Why don't families use markets internally? If mother is charging too much for dinner buy discount dinner from father. Markets are for allocating labour and capital to profitable sectors. That is all. Profitable does not mean beneficial to society as a whole and more and more it looks like profit driven resource allocation in mature capitalist economies are actively harming society. So much human talent and capital goods are wasted on unproductive activities such as advertising, financial "services", intellectual rent-seeking, etc. Only under a profit driven market system can so much of societies wealth go to supporting these large parasitic "industries", in fact calling them industries is an insult to actual productive sectors of the economy. This is no mistake, this is a natural outcome of a competitive market economy. It's no surprise that both the USSR and China were able to go from semi feudal to world superpowers in such short time periods while facing immense external adversity and without resorting to imperialist exploitation of other states. It's no surprise that the DPRK and Cuba are able to achieve respectable living standards despite extremely limited resources, capital access, and the constant threat of invasion.

Central planning is not necessarily bad, in fact all the successful east Asian economies following the development economics model instituted central planning to a large degree. It's only when central planning gets excessive that it's bad. There are certain parts and sectors of the economy that are more efficient when centrally planned, and other parts will be more efficiently guided by the market, thus optimal economic development revolves around balancing the two. Exactly where this balance lies also depends on the overall development level of the economy, generally developing economies can benefit more from central planning than more advanced economies. This is why the Soviet model worked great early but stagnated later on. Ultimately the Soviets realized this later on and instituted Perestroika, but by then it was too little too late.
The problem of the USSR was NOT ENOUGH central planning. Of course with their limited resources (it's the price they paid for not resorting to imperialist exploitation) they had to focus on military sectors and not developing domestic computer technology. They opted for industrial espionage instead. It's a shame since they had some very novel computer designs and definitely needed the computing power for more accurate economic planning. Their economic policy gradually introduced more market aspects leading up to the illegal dissolution of the Union by Yeltsin and co. If anything, the USSR is an example of how mixing markets and planing is a bad idea.
 

canniBUS

Junior Member
Registered Member
Come on, Trump, don't disappoint your old angry voters. Be hard! Be uncompromising! Last time you invited China and this time you propose to China again??!! Have you no shame? Let China have a turn... whenever they may feel compelled ;). Don't give up, Trump! I wanna see how this ends for you when China, EU, Canada, and Mexico (and North Korea LOL) all tell you to pound sand, not that China needed any help as things are.
I wanted the trade war to escalate more, hopefully trumps stupidity will overcome the calm voices around him. Every action he takes weakens america's empire.
 
D

Deleted member 13312

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Utter idealist nonsense. If markets so efficient why don't capitalist enterprises use market systems internally? Have employee teams bid and build competing products against other teams. Why don't families use markets internally? If mother is charging too much for dinner buy discount dinner from father. Markets are for allocating labour and capital to profitable sectors. That is all. Profitable does not mean beneficial to society as a whole and more and more it looks like profit driven resource allocation in mature capitalist economies are actively harming society. So much human talent and capital goods are wasted on unproductive activities such as advertising, financial "services", intellectual rent-seeking, etc. Only under a profit driven market system can so much of societies wealth go to supporting these large parasitic "industries", in fact calling them industries is an insult to actual productive sectors of the economy. This is no mistake, this is a natural outcome of a competitive market economy. It's no surprise that both the USSR and China were able to go from semi feudal to world superpowers in such short time periods while facing immense external adversity and without resorting to imperialist exploitation of other states. It's no surprise that the DPRK and Cuba are able to achieve respectable living standards despite extremely limited resources, capital access, and the constant threat of invasion.


The problem of the USSR was NOT ENOUGH central planning. Of course with their limited resources (it's the price they paid for not resorting to imperialist exploitation) they had to focus on military sectors and not developing domestic computer technology. They opted for industrial espionage instead. It's a shame since they had some very novel computer designs and definitely needed the computing power for more accurate economic planning. Their economic policy gradually introduced more market aspects leading up to the illegal dissolution of the Union by Yeltsin and co. If anything, the USSR is an example of how mixing markets and planing is a bad idea.
Dear god, I know from the nature of this forum to expect certain points of view and perspectives but this one right here boggles the mind. First of all, yes capitalist enterprise often does resort to competitive bids internally when coming up with new products. And are you serious in attempting to capitalize a family setting ? That is so far away from a corporate environment as Pluto is to the Sun.
It is more certain that capitalism does not seek to enrich the whole of society by a single entity or person, but what it does is to enrich the circle of society around that particular entity which in turn helps enrich the next group closest to it. Advertisement, financial service, intellectual property rights. These very things you disparage are the keystones to greater productivity beyond that of menial labour. Why do you think that China's fintech sector is booming or they are filling record number of patents ?
And you are mistaken as to how the USSR and China came to be as superpowers, the USSR became one by taking advantage of the vaccum left by WW2 in Eastern Europe and the global wave of nationalism in Asia, Africa and South America at the time. China only shows signs of becoming one by ironically embracing capitalist ideals like private enterprises in the 90s which grants it increased wealth and trade access. And DPRK Cuba have great living standards ? Seriously ? If you are comparing them to war ravaged states then that is a maybe, but fact is much of those 2 countries economic growth depended much on lopsided trade agreements and investments from the USSR back in the Cold War and when that was gone those 2 sure when downhill quick.
The last thing that the USSR needed was more central planning, attempting to micromanage every facet of the economy is what lead to it's downfall in the first place along side an ever increasing defense budget. A central economy cannot and can never predict and adjust to the constantly shifting facets of multiple sectors quick enough, it can put forth general and long term economic policies yes but that's just about it. A funny but powerful case in point would be the time where the central planning unit in Moscow did not anticipate the increased demand for umbrellas during the rainy season, as such there was a shortage of nearly 1 umbrella to every 20 people, you can guess how well that worked out.
What Yeltsin did wrong was to go full throttle into capitalism, if he had done so in a gradual fashion like China, the USSR may very well persisted into the 21st century.
There is so much wrong and dogma in your post that it would actually be funny if it was not apparently dead serious.
 

canniBUS

Junior Member
Registered Member
Regarding Yeltsin. He didn't do anything wrong, he did exactly what his masters wanted.
And are you serious in attempting to capitalize a family setting ? That is so far away from a corporate environment as Pluto is to the Sun.
So why do you oppose introducing markets into family setting? Markets are suppose to be efficient and resource allocation. I'll tell you why. Because a family setting is not about maximizing profit, it is about producing use-values for the family members to the mutual benefit of the whole family. The profit driven market economy is not necessary for producing the goods and services we need. Or perhaps you mean that markets are good in the corporate setting only. If that's the case let me remind you that corporations are not the entirety of society.
Advertisement, financial service, intellectual property rights. These very things you disparage are the keystones to greater productivity beyond that of menial labour.
Are they really though? Scientific advancement and improving labor productivity are the keys. A market economy is not necessary for either of those. Look at the great scientists of the past, if they weren't aristocrats they were working for state institutions. Either way the majority did not pursue their research for profit, some even threw their own wealth into funding their research. What private enterprise does is take the scientific knowledge from the public sector and encloses it behind the wall of property rights. It is rent-seeking behavior that benefits the property owners at the expense of every one else. Private finance is the same parasite only larger. Finally it's trivially easy to understand that everyone wants to find ways to work less, boosting productivity is a natural behavior of anything with a functioning brain.
Why do you think that China's fintech sector is booming or they are filling record number of patents ?
Why are capitalists using institutions designed to help capital? Because it is in their self interest to do so, but not everyone in China is part of the capitalist class in fact the majority are not.
And DPRK Cuba have great living standards ?
Considering they have been economically blockaded and have far smaller labour pool and resources at hand, yes, their accomplishments are no less miraculous than China's, and I don't mean in the past but in the recent decades.
A central economy cannot and can never predict and adjust to the constantly shifting facets of multiple sectors quick enough, it can put forth general and long term economic policies yes but that's just about it.
Yes they can, the centrally planned logistics systems of amazon and walmart can predict what customers will buy and ship them to closer warehouses. We nationalize those systems and can transform the USA into USSA overnight. There's nothing preventing the use of machine learning for state economic planning, as I said before, the computing power is there and the algorithms are very much tractable. Same thing applies to China's internet infrastructure. Nothing is more satisfying than killing your enemy with his own weapons.
There is so much wrong and dogma in your post that it would actually be funny if it was not apparently dead serious.
No one is free of ideology. You are simply repeating the same tired liberal propaganda regarding the necessity of free markets and the faults of the USSR and other Marxist-Leninist states. I don't blame you since that's what the western education system teaches, at least I hope you learned this from the west and not from the Chinese education system. That would be even sadder. The problems with the liberal ideology is that it does not describe reality, it benefits the status quo which means the existing imperialist power and it ultimately undermines it's own positive aspects (human rights, democracy) to protect its economic system, capitalism.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I wanted the trade war to escalate more, hopefully trumps stupidity will overcome the calm voices around him. Every action he takes weakens america's empire.
That's exactly what I was thinking. Come on Trump, I thought you was hard! Don't pussyfoot around; you'll lose old angry conservative support! Tariff all Chinese goods; tariff Mexico, Canada, Japan, the EU! Talk more trash about world leaders behind closed doors only to have it all leaked by your own staff LOL. Rage-quit the WTO; that'll show 'em all how tough you are!
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Deleted member 13312

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Regarding Yeltsin. He didn't do anything wrong, he did exactly what his masters wanted.
Ah yes the age old liberal/1 percenter conspiracy theory. Seen that being pull out the rabbit's hat a million time, along side the lizard man are running Wall Street and the Nazis are on the dark side of the moon. That is some fine stuff you are smoking there.
So why do you oppose introducing markets into family setting? Markets are suppose to be efficient and resource allocation. I'll tell you why. Because a family setting is not about maximizing profit, it is about producing use-values for the family members to the mutual benefit of the whole family. The profit driven market economy is not necessary for producing the goods and services we need. Or perhaps you mean that markets are good in the corporate setting only. If that's the case let me remind you that corporations are not the entirety of society.
I oppose that because not only what you are asking is a loaded question which is intellectually dishonest, but also that a family setting consist of a wholly seperate entity of that from the corporate society. And did I every posted anywhere in earlier that I claim that corporate form the entirety of society ? Stop trying to put words where it does not exist. I have make it plaint from the start that corporate and family are 2 separate entities. To say that people are not profit driven is to be ignorant to the extreme of the basic human nature of desire and greed. No one on this world will work for free for the benefit of others, that is a socialist wet dream that will never come true. Not everyone is a friend to another or a family member, that is the biggest flaw of your argument.
Are they really though? Scientific advancement and improving labor productivity are the keys. A market economy is not necessary for either of those. Look at the great scientists of the past, if they weren't aristocrats they were working for state institutions. Either way the majority did not pursue their research for profit, some even threw their own wealth into funding their research. What private enterprise does is take the scientific knowledge from the public sector and encloses it behind the wall of property rights. It is rent-seeking behavior that benefits the property owners at the expense of every one else. Private finance is the same parasite only larger. Finally it's trivially easy to understand that everyone wants to find ways to work less, boosting productivity is a natural behavior of anything with a functioning brain.
If we look into the feudal state, we can see that during the medieval times. Scientific progress moved along at a snails pace, precisely because people who had the vision lacks the necessary funds and resources to pursue it. On the side of arts, wealthy patrons and institutions often commission grand works from artists like Michelangelo who sold their expertise for a living. If anyone anywhere is free to make use of the ideas that people put much time and effort into conceiving there will be no drive for people to actually innovate in the first place.Why would I bother to invent something new if others can just leach off it for free ?You clearly have much to learn of the private sector beyond that of die hard extremists like Marx and Lenin. Boosting productive is only possible if people are driven to do so.
Why are capitalists using institutions designed to help capital? Because it is in their self interest to do so, but not everyone in China is part of the capitalist class in fact the majority are not.
Considering how China is currently boasting both the largest and fastest growing middle class I did say you are outta your mind. And you still don't get the point, people uses such systems to enrich themselves and their immediate circle, which in turn will future enrich others in contact with them.
Considering they have been economically blockaded and have far smaller labour pool and resources at hand, yes, their accomplishments are no less miraculous than China's, and I don't mean in the past but in the recent decades.
DPRK may be excused for this, but Cuba is not the kind of island nation under siege as you might think it to be. It trades extensively with even close US allies like Canada and Italy, yet it is still dirt poor.
Yes they can, the centrally planned logistics systems of amazon and walmart can predict what customers will buy and ship them to closer warehouses. We nationalize those systems and can transform the USA into USSA overnight. There's nothing preventing the use of machine learning for state economic planning, as I said before, the computing power is there and the algorithms are very much tractable. Same thing applies to China's internet infrastructure. Nothing is more satisfying than killing your enemy with his own weapons.
Nice to see you conveniently left out the fact that Amazon and Walmart are shopping giants who deals solely with matters of delivery and marketing. Now try and envision that on a national scale covering everything from basic production, manufacturing, labour costs and so on. Predicting what a customer will buy is not the same as predicting how much they will buy. Lets get that straight from the start, no amount of algorithms can predict the basic human nature of desire or non factor able issues like how many of my friends might be coming over for dinner tonight.

No one is free of ideology. You are simply repeating the same tired liberal propaganda regarding the necessity of free markets and the faults of the USSR and other Marxist-Leninist states. I don't blame you since that's what the western education system teaches, at least I hope you learned this from the west and not from the Chinese education system. That would be even sadder. The problems with the liberal ideology is that it does not describe reality, it benefits the status quo which means the existing imperialist power and it ultimately undermines it's own positive aspects (human rights, democracy) to protect its economic system, capitalism.
And apparently you are shackled to it by one chain too many. Before you started ranting off in a high and mighty tone about how my education was taught to me, let me REMIND you that you are also repeating the same tired communist/propaganda that attempts to control and micromanage the impossible, basic human greed and desire. And failing miserably at that. Socialism and Communism is even more detached from reality as it assumes humans are basically automatons with no personality, hopes and dreams. And it attempts to model them into so with disastrous results.
Here is a hint, drop that copy of Das Kapital that you are holding and try to go out into the world and get people to do something for you for free because it is "for the good of society". You may get a rather rude awakening.
 
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And to further clarify, I am not whole against every single aspect of socialism. In fact I am cognizant of certain aspects that socialism has championed and won for society like minimum wages, workers unions and so on. But people like you who blindly thinks that socialism is a blanket ideology that can be apply to every facet of human society are extremely misguided and misinformed.
 
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