Trade War with China

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Tam

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Hendrik_2000 said:
But government procurement policy mandated use of domestic chip So if Lenovo want to sell to government which I am sure they wanted to, they have no choice but using domestic chip

Domestic chips to get a big boost
China Daily, May 24, 2018

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A technician demonstrates a domestically developed chip in Wuxi, Jiangsu province. [Photo/Xinhua]
China is including domestic processors in its government procurement plans :enjoy: as the nation steps up its effort to promote the application of homegrown chips in government agencies and State-owned enterprises.

The move is likely to put pressure on U.S. tech giant Intel Corp whose chips are now widely used in China's server market :lol:, experts said on Wednesday.

According to a proposal published on the official website of the Central Government Procurement Center, servers powered by domestic central processing units including Loongson, ShenWei and Phytium are included in China's government procurement plan for 2018-19.

This is the first time that homegrown chip-driven servers have been included in such a proposal, underlying China's determination to promote the application of domestic processors which are making steady progress in performance. State-owned enterprises and government agencies are important buyers of information technology equipment in China.

Loongson is the brand name for China's first self-developed general-purpose microprocessor. ShenWei is a homegrown CPU that powers Sunway TaihuLight, the world's fastest supercomputer. Phytium CPUs are developed by the National University of Defense Technology, a top military academy in China.

Nicknamed the "brain" of electronic products, chips lie inside a wide range of products and power mobile phones, computers, automobiles and other equipment. In recent years, China has spent more than $200 billion on imported chips annually, more than the amount spent on crude oil imports, according to official data.

Hu Weiwu, president of Loongson Technology Corp, said the move is a "milestone" for homegrown chips, "highlighting the strong support the government gives us".

So far, most servers included in government purchase plans come with Intel processors. But as domestic chips make progress, they are good enough to support certain application scenarios, Hu said.
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The best and bigger reason going for domestic chips along with a domestic OS is cybersecurity. Using Intel chips for a secure system is like building a fortress with swiss cheese.
 
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tidalwave

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Let's put it this way, even if Chinese chips are better than Intel, US would never ever allow even one singlw chip in government procurement.
China government lacking this type of mean streak of US government, not sure if it's good or bad.
China allows all kind of foreign chips in their government infrastructure, yet foreign companies still complaining about market access, or fairness.

I mean there's no market access of any kind for Chinese tech in US government procurement

They griping China has all the market access in Western market, they probably mean Walmart and dollar tree.
 
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Quickie

Quickie

Colonel
tidalwave said:
China said its wants 80% self sufficient and 14nm/10nm is the last stop it needs EVER for digital chips and Analog chips it just needs to have the old process and tech.
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The thing with the chip process technology is that, the smaller the dimension is, the faster the chip is, at a lesser power consumption. This explains why when it comes to CPUs / Digital Processors the aim is always to go smaller, at least until the atomic limit is reached.
 
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Tam

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Icmer said:
Lenovo is now using Zhaoxin chips for one of its desktop lines. This was being planned long before the trade war kicked off. I don't think Lenovo is a traitorous company/comprador like some hardcore nationalists do. Loongson chips were simply vastly inferior whenever that request was made.


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ZTE preferred foreign chips (Qualcomm and MediaTek) but not Huawei (HiSilicon).
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Huawei has made it clear that HiSilicon is for Huawei products only. Its for Huawei exclusive use only. Huawei isn't going to sell it to ZTE or Xiaomi or Oppo if these companies asked for it.

ZTE has toyed the idea, and I won't be surprised if they even worked on it --- to create its own SOC. Xiaomi certainly has made noises to that direction.
 
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Tam

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Anlsvrthng said:
To see high inflation (unless same serious distortion in the GINI / market ) the unemployment has to go down, and the wages has to go up. Means the growing interest , that can trigger growing unemployment is a reaction for an out of control situation.


There is no upper limit of the government / fed capacity.
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In theory, there is no upper limit. You can be holding 21 trillion dollars in debt or 210 trillion. But then again, Dan Coats also said that ballooning national debt is one of the biggest threats to national security, but even if he is in charge of national security, he's not an economist. Or does he has at least some understanding of it.

The problem is that you have to keep paying the debt with interest with more debt. The ratio of national debt to GDP in the US is worsening. If you have a flattening curve with respect to debt and GDP, which even Greece and Italy is showing, that's light in the tunnel. But if the curve is rising, then you see is a black hole.
 
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tidalwave

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Quickie said:
The thing with the chip process technology is that, the smaller the dimension is, the faster the chip is, at a lesser power consumption. This explains why when it comes to CPUs / Digital Processors the aim is always to go smaller, at least until the atomic limit is reached.
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You need consider the economics. In order to justify to transition to 7nm , Huawei ships about 200 million cellphones in 2018.
That's alot of chips to recover that investment.

As far as for China domestic CPU manufacturing, No way they have that kind of volume, even with addition of some export. Far less than 200 million chips,
Not justified to go into 7nm or below production.

Again, 14nm good enough (tech and economics) for domestic desktop/laptop CPU production.
10nm is the last stop for China for majority of chip production.

Only exception is Huawei, it has tremendous volume, it can use the very expensive process from TSMC.
 
vincent

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Tam said:
In theory, there is no upper limit. You can be holding 21 trillion dollars in debt or 210 trillion. But then again, Dan Coats also said that ballooning national debt is one of the biggest threats to national security, but even if he is in charge of national security, he's not an economist. Or does he has at least some understanding of it.

The problem is that you have to keep paying the debt with interest with more debt. The ratio of national debt to GDP in the US is worsening. If you have a flattening curve with respect to debt and GDP, which even Greece and Italy is showing, that's light in the tunnel. But if the curve is rising, then you see is a black hole.
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He should learn from the Zimbabwe's experience
 
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PanAsian

Major
Anlsvrthng said:
The biggest challenge for China is not really how to copy the west chip manufacturing, that is relatively easy.
It needs only money ( that is there anyway) and lot of cheap workforce .

The real challenge is to make the legalisation / cultural changes and institutions, to be able to make the next big thing in China.

It already copied over as far as possible , but the Japanese example show that how hard is this change.
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tidalwave said:
Chinese are people of great Inertia.
They always practice and doing thing in a very gradual way.

This trade war is a God send in terms of forcing them to change things drastically.

Need some good ole ass kicking to jumpstart things.
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It's all about vested/special interests preventing change that's good for country, society, or even humanity, witness the electronics and chips case that's being discussed. This happens everywhere and is not a Chinese phenomenon, witness the fossil fuels and renewable energy case all around the world that has been going on for decades. In China's current situation the question is whether the government working for the good of the country and society can overcome vested/special interests.
 
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