Trade War with China

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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I think people are overblown to focus strictly on nm issue.
US has tons of semiconductor companies only Qualcomm, Apple, Nvidia, has any product below 10nm . Intel stuck at 10nm.

What about the rest of them? especially Analog chips companies like Texas instrument, Linear, Maxim, Fairchild, Analog Device, Cypress they are still using Bipolar technology from 70s and will continue to use it now and in the future. Because analog chips needs to high power, fast. Going sub nm means dimnishing power supply and not fast enough and also small dimension means too easily breakdown. Triquint use GaAs special process. IGBT tech use fast, high power bipolar tech. Analog chips used for electric cars and electric catapult for carrier. China should concentrate on those.

China said its wants 80% self sufficient and 14nm/10nm is the last stop it needs EVER for digital chips and Analog chips it just needs to have the old process and tech.

Actually IGBT is owned by China SOE
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CRRC Zhuzhou, a subsidiary of China Railway Rolling Stock Corp Ltd, the country's railway vehicle and equipment exporter, acquired British semiconductor maker Dynex in 2008 to gain access to its technologies and R&D capability in IGBT products.

Zhou Qinghe, chairman of CRRC Zhuzhou, said as many emerging countries have just begun to build new railway lines, power and air transportation facilities, they are keen to acquire such products from China, to help them improve their manufacturing ability, railway operations and maintenance, and other services.

"While our China manufacturing facility will focus on lower-voltage IGBT semiconductors, which would derive more benefit from large-volume manufacturing and economies of scale, our manufacturing facility in the UK owned by Dynex will have more focus on high-voltage IGBT," said Zhou. "It has a smaller market demand so less need for mass volume manufacturing."

The company's new production line in Zhuzhou produces IGBT products.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
overview of Chinese semiconductor. Too much fuss is made of technology superiority. But all you need is to poach the best engineer from diverse companies and give them facilities to built the technology and money of course.

China's upstart chip companies aim to topple Samsung, Intel and TSMC
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CHENG TING-FANG, Nikkei staff writerApril 25, 2018 15:00 JST
SHANGHAI/TAIPEI -- Business is booming at the Shanghai Integrated Circuit Museum.

For most of its nine-year history, the museum has been mostly a place for school children to learn about the uses of computer chips. But it has become a hot ticket for officials from all over China ever since Beijing declared that creating a world-leading semiconductor industry was a top national priority.

On a recent weekday this spring, Lance Long, the museum's director, was hosting a tour for officials from Urumqi, the Xinjiang capital known for being the world's most landlocked city. Before that, Long hosted groups from distant provinces such as Gansu and Yunnan and even Mongolia. All told, some 200 groups came last year for an education in China's next big thing.


"Many of these representatives knew very little about chips, but they all want to capture this once-in-a-lifetime investment opportunity being led by high-ranked policymakers," Long told the Nikkei Asian Review.

This national enthusiasm reflects China's towering ambitions for its semiconductor industry. China, and its young chipmakers, are clear about their goal: to break the dominance of American, South Korean, Taiwanese and Japanese semiconductor companies. The government wants to create Chinese versions of most of the industry's leaders, then leapfrog them in the race for advanced chips used in artificial intelligence.

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In March, Premier Li Keqiang named semiconductors as the top priority of the 10 industries China wants to foster in its "Made in China 2025" initiative. But China's ambitions were already clear in 2014 when it launched the National Integrated Circuit Industry Investment Fund -- better known as the Big Fund -- in 2014 with 138 billion yuan ($21.9 billion) in seed capital, which it hoped would turbocharge investment from local governments and the private sector. The Big Fund is in its second phase of fundraising for at least 150 billion yuan. Credit Suisse estimates China's total investment to be around $140 billion.

China wants to end its reliance on foreign technology -- its annual imports of $260 billion worth of semiconductor-related products have recently risen above its spending on oil. It also wants to move its manufacturing sector to higher-value products.

But there are also national security concerns. Chips serve as the brains for every electronic device -- from smartphones and PCs to connected cars and data centers -- and therefore have strong implications for intelligence. China wants to defend against the types of national security breaches exposed by Edward Snowden's 2013 leaks, which revealed connections between American technology providers and the U.S. National Security Agency's vast surveillance program.

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This position is a mirror-image of the increasingly hard-line U.S. stance toward China. American regulators have cited national security concerns when it has curbed chip and other deals with Chinese groups, and has recently fired the opening shots in a trade war to penalize China for stealing high-tech intellectual property. To Beijing, such moves point to an all-out U.S. effort to slow China's aggressive attempt to become a new semiconductor superpower.

"The U.S. is really feeling the threat," said Jerry Peng, an analyst at research unit IEK of Industrial Technology Research Institute in Taiwan.

There is no guarantee of success for China's chip push, however. The country's previous efforts to build a chip industry, including a major drive in the 1990s, were mostly unsuccessful. Its technology is far behind that of global giants such as
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and Intel, making China's goal of producing 75% of the chips it uses domestically by 2025 seem highly ambitious, analysts at Natixis say.

Unlike its previous efforts, when its investments were scattered and ill-placed, China is seeking to bring in expertise from the outside by luring foreign companies to set up advanced production facilities within its territories. This will help create a full supply chain and attract talent. The latest move by the U.S. to bar American companies from selling any components to
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, a Chinese telecom equipment provider and smartphone maker, has only strengthened China's determination to replace as many foreign suppliers as possible, according to multiple industry executives.


The recent U.S. move to bar American companies from selling components to ZTE has made China more determined to create its own chip ecosystem. © Getty Images
Analysts also say China has learned from its past mistakes.

"It's totally different from decades ago when China suffered through a frustrating experience to build semiconductors out of nowhere," Mark Li, an analyst at Bernstein Research said. "This time, it's a totally different story as the country has all the right ingredients, including a massive market and strong local makers of smartphones, TVs, PCs, and automobiles ... . It could be just a matter of time for them to bear fruit."

Memory chip push

The first fruits of Beijing's big investment in chips could come as soon as the end of next year, when it will begin shipping its first batch of memory chips. Right now, China has yet to produce such chips in substantial volumes. But industry executives say Chinese memory chips could cause a major disruption in the market once its manufacturers are able to produce them in sufficient quantities, which they expect to happen in three to five years.

When that happens, it could have an impact on two markets: NAND flash memory and DRAM memory chips.

Production of global NAND flash memory-- a $58 billion market annually -- is controlled by only six companies: Samsung Electronics, Toshiba, Western Digital,
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, Micron Technology and Intel.


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DRAMs are dominated by an even smaller group of companies: Samsung, SK Hynix and Micron, which together held 95% of the $71 billion global market in 2017, according to Taipei-based research company TrendForce.

Helped by strong demand and tight supplies, Samsung and SK Hynix alone generated some $85 billion in memory chip sales in 2017, higher than the gross domestic product of Luxembourg. The combined semiconductor operating profit from both companies -- about $46 billion -- would be 1.6 times higher than what the two biggest Japanese companies, Toyota Motor and SoftBank Group, earned together in fiscal 2017.

"It's so unhealthy about the recent memory price hike, and it's so unfair that such important components are controlled by very few companies," a Chinese chip industry executive told the Nikkei Asian Review. "The road could be bumpy, but we need to have our domestic memory chips for sure, and we wouldn't care at first whether we could make a profit or whether we cause a price crash in the market."


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Yangtze Memory Technologies is spending $24 billion to build one of China's first advanced memory chip factories in the city of Wuhan. (Courtesy of Tsinghua Unigroup)
A little-known state-backed conglomerate called Tsinghua Unigroup will play a key role in determining whether Chinese chipmakers can successfully challenge the dominance of Samsung, SK Hynix and Toshiba in the memory market.

Tsinghua initially tried to buy its way into the market, but its $23 billion bid to acquire Micron and a separate attempt to become the largest shareholder of Western Digital were blocked by the U.S. government. At the same time, the industry's dominant players were reluctant to license their technology to the aggressive latecomer. But those setbacks did not dampen Tsinghua's enthusiasm.

The group's affiliate, Yangtze Memory Technologies, is spending $24 billion to build the country's first advanced memory chip factories in the city of Wuhan. It has poached thousands of engineers from Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron and
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, and on April 11, it began moving equipment into the factory.


Tsinghua Unigroup Chairman Zhao Weiguo announced that the company should begin producing its first batch of 32-layer NAND flash memory chips this year. But Avril Wu, a longtime market watcher at TrendForce, said it is likely that Yangtze Memory will not be ready to ship the more advanced 64-layer chips, currently the industry standard, until the end of 2019 at the earliest.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
(cont)

Apple, the world's biggest consumer of NAND flash memory, recently visited Yangtze Memory to learn about its development status, according to people familiar with the matter. It is not clear whether the iPhone maker received pressure from China to evaluate a potential supply deal, but Apple will undoubtedly want to continue diversifying its memory chip suppliers in order to reduce its reliance on Samsung, multiple industry sources and analysts have said.

Roger Sheng, an analyst at Gartner, said Chinese memory chipmakers still have a long way to go before they make a dent in the market. Still, his company expects that in the NAND flash memory segment, Yangtze Memory could come to replace some low-end providers in three years and compete with first-tier players in five years.

Samsung Electronics CEO Kim Ki-nam and Micron CEO Sanjay Mehrotra are aware of China's offensive, but both say Chinese chipmakers face high technological barriers to entering the market. "We recognize that the Chinese government is supporting [these emerging players] actively ... but it's difficult to narrow technological gaps in the short term solely through big investments," Samsung's Kim said at the company's annual general meeting in March.

The memory chip market is notoriously volatile, swinging between periods of supply shortages and serious gluts. Despite China's technological hurdles, executives from top memory chipmakers worry that Chinese companies could flood the market with cheap semiconductors, leading to a repeat of the massive oversupply that hit the industry a decade ago.

There may be good reason for such concern -- the planned capacity from China is huge. Yangtze Memory has set out to make 300,000 NAND flash wafers a month in years to come, equivalent to some 20% of current global output. "Even if only some one-third or even less of [planned production] is realized in three to five years, it could cause a major price drop for memory chips and hurt the profitability of current suppliers," said Sean Yang, an analyst at Shanghai-based CINNO.

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Chinese chipmakers will have the advantage of a vast end market of local gadget makers eager to use more domestic chips. Chinese brands controlled roughly 50% of the global smartphone market and 36% of the PC and tablet computer market in 2017, according to Gartner. Government agencies would also be first-wave adopters.

Another potential hurdle -- intellectual property, including chip design and production techniques -- is not a worry for Chinese chipmakers, analysts say. "Intellectual property issues would never be a roadblock for these newcomers," said IEK's Peng. "The most important task is to deliver the results, and even if there is any concerns with IPs, they can always later come back to negotiate with these big guys to settle the case with a certain license fee."

A dilemma for foreign chipmakers

While IP may not be a worry for the Chinese companies, it is a very real concern for foreign chip giants such as Intel, Samsung,
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and SK Hynix. Like companies in other sectors, high-tech groups are eager to have access to the Chinese market, but wary of handing over valuable technology secrets to state-sponsored competitors.

For China, bringing in as many world-class foreign chip producers as possible is the easiest way to achieve its goal of cultivating a supply chain ecosystem to support its new industry.

"For the longer term, expanding advanced production sites in China could be a trade-off for the existing players because they are potentially helping their competitors," said a Taiwanese chip industry executive who asked not to be named. "It's like these newcomers can go to Harvard or MIT near their home rather than going abroad."

TSMC, for instance, has spent $3 billion on an advanced 12-inch chip facility in the Chinese city of Nanjing, which began production ahead of schedule in April. The world's No. 1 contract chipmaker relies on Apple, Qualcomm, Nvidia and other U.S. clients for 60% of its revenue, but Chinese customers are its fastest growing, making up some 11% of sales in 2017, up from 9% the previous
year.

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Tsinghua Unigroup plans to build a memory chip production site the size of 2,380 basketball courts in Nanjing. (Photo by Cheng Ting-Fang)
Not far away from TSMC's Nanjing facility, Tsinghua Unigroup is planning to build a $30 billion megasite the size of 2,380 basketball courts to produce memory chips. The Tsinghua project would benefit from any suppliers that TSMC brings to the community.

"It's very difficult for emerging players to secure good support from best-in-class chip equipment and material suppliers, but foreign chipmakers would bring a whole cluster of them even to some distant cities should they have a facility there," said Gartner's Sheng. "And these foreign chipmakers could help us train a huge group of engineers that could later work for local Chinese companies."

This complicated dynamic will only be exacerbated once homegrown Chinese chipmakers make it to the global stage.

"We will see more and more conflicts of interests later -- between countries and also between local and foreign suppliers later," said CINNO's Yang. "This ongoing trade friction between the U.S. and China is just one example."

Nikkei staff writers Hiromi Sato in Silicon Valley, Kim Jaewon in Seoul and Lauly Li in Taipei contributed to this report.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
One if the biggest culprit in hurting China Semiconductor industry is domestic system maker like Lenovo.
It's short sighted and believe only in Western components. It wouldn't want to risk it's chance to make a few bucks.
It picked IBM laptop assembly and decliningMotorola that US companies wanted to rid off. It has no core tech.

Chairman of Loongson wrote a letter to Lenovo asking if they can help support domestic chip industry by setting up some Lenovo products using loongson chips for domestic market. Lenovo said it's no sure thing it can sell therefore turned it down.

Even ZTE and Huawei prefer foreign chips over domestic one.

That's one of the biggest reason, China domestic chip industry has no take off due to domestic maker short sightness. They wouldn't give them a chance.

They wouldn't want to jeopardize their chances of making a few bucks.

Things maybe changing due to trade war.

China has to play a crucial role of promoting domestic chips by government purchase for government, education, state enterprise IT products.

Trade war is a God send for purging of US tech in China which they played a dominant role.

US experts misread this, the noise of China semiconductor development overwhelmed them. They thought that's a great threat.

They didn't consider China system makers belittle domestic chips and US Semiconductor makers enjoy dominant position. Man, what more do you want?

This trade war is really changing things, changing the mindset of domestic makers.

This trade war is actually killing the goose that lays the golden egg.


This will leads to purging of US tech deeply entrenched in China market. trump experts misread the situation. They thought they are doing something to protect their tech lead when in fact the opposite.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
One if the biggest culprit in hurting China Semiconductor industry is domestic system maker like Lenovo.
It's short sighted and believe only in Western components. It wouldn't want to risk it's chance to make a few bucks.
It picked IBM laptop assembly and decliningMotorola that US companies wanted to rid off. It has no core tech.

Chairman of Loongson wrote a letter to Lenovo asking if they can help support domestic chip industry by setting up some Lenovo products using loongson chips for domestic market. Lenovo said it's no sure thing it can sell therefore turned it down.

Even ZTE and Huawei prefer foreign chips over domestic one.

That's one of the biggest reason, China domestic chip industry has no take off due to domestic maker short sightness. They wouldn't give them a chance.

They wouldn't want to jeopardize their chances of making a few bucks.

Things maybe changing due to trade war.

China has to play a crucial role of promoting domestic chips by government purchase for government, education, state enterprise IT products.

Trade war is a God send for purging of US tech in China which they played a dominant role.

US experts misread this, the noise of China semiconductor development overwhelmed them. They thought that's a great threat.

They didn't consider China system makers belittle domestic chips and US Semiconductor makers enjoy dominant position. Man, what more do you want?

This trade war is really changing things, changing the mindset of domestic makers.

This trade war is actually killing the goose that lays the golden egg.


This will leads to purging of US tech deeply entrenched in China market. trump experts misread the situation. They thought they are doing something to protect their tech lead when in fact the opposite
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Prefer foreign chips over domestic one.

That's one of the biggest reason, China domestic chip industry has no take off due to domestic maker short sightness. They wouldn't give them a chance.

They wouldn't want to jeopardize their chances of making a few bucks.

Things maybe changing due to trade war.

China has to play a crucial role of promoting domestic chips by government purchase for government, education, state enterprise IT products.

Trade war is a God send for purging of US tech in China which they played a dominant role.

US experts misread this, the noise of China semiconductor development overwhelmed them. They thought that's a great threat.
The biggest challenge for China is not really how to copy the west chip manufacturing, that is relatively easy.
It needs only money ( that is there anyway) and lot of cheap workforce .

The real challenge is to make the legalisation / cultural changes and institutions, to be able to make the next big thing in China.

It already copied over as far as possible , but the Japanese example show that how hard is this change.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
The biggest challenge for China is not really how to copy the west chip manufacturing, that is relatively easy.
It needs only money ( that is there anyway) and lot of cheap workforce .

The real challenge is to make the legalisation / cultural changes and institutions, to be able to make the next big thing in China.

It already copied over as far as possible , but the Japanese example show that how hard is this change.
Chinese are people of great Inertia.
They always practice and doing thing in a very gradual way.

This trade war is a God send in terms of forcing them to change things drastically.

Need some good ole ass kicking to jumpstart things.
 

Icmer

Junior Member
Registered Member
One if the biggest culprit in hurting China Semiconductor industry is domestic system maker like Lenovo.
It's short sighted and believe only in Western components. It wouldn't want to risk it's chance to make a few bucks.
It picked IBM laptop assembly and decliningMotorola that US companies wanted to rid off. It has no core tech.

Chairman of Loongson wrote a letter to Lenovo asking if they can help support domestic chip industry by setting up some Lenovo products using loongson chips for domestic market. Lenovo said it's no sure thing it can sell therefore turned it down.

Lenovo is now using Zhaoxin chips for one of its desktop lines. This was being planned long before the trade war kicked off. I don't think Lenovo is a traitorous company/comprador like some hardcore nationalists do. Loongson chips were simply vastly inferior whenever that request was made.

Lenovo Kaitian M6200, powered by Zhaoxin KaiXian KX-5640 processors was introduced to the public for the first time during this exhibition, and achieved customer's praise. The computers from many brands such as TONGFANG and BIENS with Zhaoxin's solutions have listed in many government procurement catalogs, deployed in many national key systems and projects and got a lot of positive feedbacks.
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Even ZTE and Huawei prefer foreign chips over domestic one.

ZTE preferred foreign chips (Qualcomm and MediaTek) but not Huawei (HiSilicon).
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
Lenovo is now using Zhaoxin chips for one of its desktop lines. This was being planned long before the trade war kicked off. I don't think Lenovo is a traitorous company/comprador like some hardcore nationalists do. Loongson chips were simply vastly inferior whenever that request was made.


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ZTE preferred foreign chips (Qualcomm and MediaTek) but not Huawei (HiSilicon).
Not really, loongson running on Linux is adequate enough for school, government. Lemote made Loongson based system for jiangsu province for schools. At least they try! Lenovo doesn't even try.

You cant possibly find excuse for Lenovo.
Its Vey well know when they asked Lenovo why they don't design chips.

They said why bother! Why bother to make chips when you can just buy foreign chips and have guarantee sale. It's widely ridiculed for its lack of innovation. It's settled to a role of assembly of US tech. People are looking down at Lenovo. Because of the backlash against them, they last yr announce to made Zhaoxin based system.

other than cellphone chip Kirin, Huawei depend alot on other foreign chips, fiberoptical transceiver, FPGA, memory, etc
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Not really, loongson running on Linux is adequate enough for school, government. Lemote made Loongson based system for jiangsu province for schools. At least they try! Lenovo doesn't even try.

You cant possibly find excuse for Lenovo.
Its Vey well know when they asked Lenovo why they don't design chips.

They said why bother! Why bother to make chips when you can just buy foreign chips and have guarantee sale. It's widely ridiculed for its lack of innovation. It's settled to a role of assembly of US tech. People are looking down at Lenovo. Because of the backlash against them, they last yr announce to made Zhaoxin based system.

other than cellphone chip Kirin, Huawei depend alot on other foreign chips, fiberoptical transceiver, FPGA, memory, etc

But government procurement policy mandated use of domestic chip So if Lenovo want to sell to government which I am sure they wanted to, they have no choice but using domestic chip

Domestic chips to get a big boost
China Daily, May 24, 2018

1906b1b0-6aa9-49ea-a08c-5254c866dc2f.jpg

A technician demonstrates a domestically developed chip in Wuxi, Jiangsu province. [Photo/Xinhua]
China is including domestic processors in its government procurement plans :enjoy: as the nation steps up its effort to promote the application of homegrown chips in government agencies and State-owned enterprises.

The move is likely to put pressure on U.S. tech giant Intel Corp whose chips are now widely used in China's server market :lol:, experts said on Wednesday.

According to a proposal published on the official website of the Central Government Procurement Center, servers powered by domestic central processing units including Loongson, ShenWei and Phytium are included in China's government procurement plan for 2018-19.

This is the first time that homegrown chip-driven servers have been included in such a proposal, underlying China's determination to promote the application of domestic processors which are making steady progress in performance. State-owned enterprises and government agencies are important buyers of information technology equipment in China.

Loongson is the brand name for China's first self-developed general-purpose microprocessor. ShenWei is a homegrown CPU that powers Sunway TaihuLight, the world's fastest supercomputer. Phytium CPUs are developed by the National University of Defense Technology, a top military academy in China.

Nicknamed the "brain" of electronic products, chips lie inside a wide range of products and power mobile phones, computers, automobiles and other equipment. In recent years, China has spent more than $200 billion on imported chips annually, more than the amount spent on crude oil imports, according to official data.

Hu Weiwu, president of Loongson Technology Corp, said the move is a "milestone" for homegrown chips, "highlighting the strong support the government gives us".

So far, most servers included in government purchase plans come with Intel processors. But as domestic chips make progress, they are good enough to support certain application scenarios, Hu said.
 
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