Tired of foreign domination of its telecom market share China...

challenge

Banned Idiot
Re: New J-10 Thread III

Who told you that? Please don't get your info from an ignorant blogger or journalist. China never admitted to anything like that. China's telecommunications tech is top notch, right at the cutting edge forced by unique burdens (sheer population densities) on the telecom infrastructure. Maybe you need to read and follow up on telecommunications technology like I do and what's happening world wide.

Huawei has the most patent applications for any company in any sector around the world last year. Including IBM. ZTE sits in almost 3,000 patents alone. ZTE has a booth in the last CTIA affair in Los Angeles trying to sell 4G LTE solutions to US carriers, and Huawei has both 3G and 4G contracts even in Western Europe. Huawei is already the 5th largest telecom company in the world and is gunning for 4th place, now currently occupied by Alcatel-Lucent.

You seem to think that Link 16 is some hard to accomplish technology when its basically a format for TDMA based technology, the technology which 2G GSM is based upon. Put it in another way, TDMA is generation 1 cellular phone technology, albeit Link 16 is based upon this made more ECM resistant. Even Link 22 isn't that much any better, still a TDMA system. In commercial terms, these are dinosaurs.
actually the article,it's all over the chinese military website,original text come from official chinese military government report.
after the afghan air war,several chinese magazine feature article about link-16 and net centric information warfare.the article may provide outsider what the Chinese military is thinking.
last year, Chinese website,report that china is trying to developed there own version joint service data distribution system.similiar to USAF link-16.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: New J-10 Thread III

actually the article,it's all over the chinese military website,original text come from official chinese military government report.
after the afghan air war,several chinese magazine feature article about link-16 and net centric information warfare.the article may provide outsider what the Chinese military is thinking.
last year, Chinese website,report that china is trying to developed there own version joint service data distribution system.similiar to USAF link-16.


Link 16 is obsolete, generations behind the latest civil telephony technologies. Maybe the PLA's own communications infrastructure is obsolete and has not been upgraded, but the country's technological capabilities to develop a far more advanced datalink is there. After all, a data link is nothing but a computer to computer protocol. Also it has nothing to say what the PLAAF maybe using on their own, considering all the satlinks the J-10 has.

Like I said, Link 16 is an eighties TDMA technology, simply reformatted to military protocols. Its bit rate is comparable to first gen celphones, which means even slower than GSM/GPRS.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: New J-10 Thread III

Thanks crobato. I always wondered exactly what type of wireless tech military datalinks used... its too long distance to be wifi-style connections. So it was cell phones all along. How vulnerable are modern data-links to jamming? I know militaries have jammers strong enough to jam an entire city's cell phone networks.

Wireless military links work similarly to civilian wireless telephony with the similarity of principles and technologies. Similar problems confront both, resulting in similar solutions. Like digital celphones, digital packets are sent along with voice.

As telephony technologies move up from 1G to 2G to 3G and now even 4G, they keep getting harder and harder to jam. Much of basic cell telephony are actually designed to prevent interference and jamming, mainly from all the other celphones and towers. That's why you can have millions of handsets able to operate without interference on a single frequency or on a narrow band of frequencies. If you're going to jam a modern network now, the jammer has to be that close to overwhelm the network via sheer amplitude and that powerful since you have to barrage all the frequencies, but you know, it still may not work.

For example with TDMA technologies. TDMA means Time Division Multiple Access. This means different users are allocated different time slots on the same frequency. That would be similar to a classroom where every student is given a minute to stand up and discuss their project. Now when each handset is idle, and not using broadcasting, they will each scan for other handsets and on frequencies on the air. If the current frequency is busy or being interfered, they will move to another frequency, then broadcast when their time slot comes in. What I just described is GSM. Yes, basic handset technology is frequency agile aka hopping and not only that, its LPI (Low Probability of Intercept). Actually with algorithms that exploit Orthogonality, make that zero interception.

Another, which is using pseudo random coding. You got all these handsets sharing the same frequency, each emitting pseudo random waveforms. When pseudo random waveforms are in the same frequency, they do not cancel or jam each other. In fact, pseudo random waveforms are that difficult to jam unless the jamming waveform has to match it exactly with a completely offset phase. So you got millions of handsets emitting pseudo random forms, so how can two parties communicate with each other? The first party and the second party are given a unique special code, and with this code, they are able to recognize each other, and others will be treated as background noise. Sounds fancy? Yet, this is your basic CDMA handset.

Its keeps getting more and more difficult to jam as technology progresses, combining time division, frequency hopping, spread spectrum, pseudo random forms, and the initiative is with the communicating side. Its just easier to blast the communication towers with precision munitions.
 
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challenge

Banned Idiot
Re: New J-10 Thread III

Link 16 is obsolete, generations behind the latest civil telephony technologies. Maybe the PLA's own communications infrastructure is obsolete and has not been upgraded, but the country's technological capabilities to develop a far more advanced datalink is there. After all, a data link is nothing but a computer to computer protocol. Also it has nothing to say what the PLAAF maybe using on their own, considering all the satlinks the J-10 has.

Like I said, Link 16 is an eighties TDMA technology, simply reformatted to military protocols. Its bit rate is comparable to first gen celphones, which means even slower than GSM/GPRS.

during the desert storm,aviation week reported that Iraqi ground jammer attempted and failed to jam link-16 .
according to miltech, frequency hopping radio must ,a minimum high hopped p 10,000 /sec. in order to elude jamming,link-16 able to perform 77,000 hop/sec.
China first introduced there own data link back in 1984,according to there own admission ,the first gen. chinese data link highly vulnerable to jamming,and limited number of fighters it can control.
it is possible that link-4 uses in KJ-2000 may be only temporary,it restricted to AWACS-to fighter.but Chinese text report they are working on equivalent to USAF JTIDS.
the first gen. of link-16 introduced in 1974 is limited to UHF band,later models introduce a Ku-band for SATCOM and secure voice communication.
 

challenge

Banned Idiot
Re: New J-10 Thread III

And how is that relevant to the point you are supporting?
Source? Date of source? Which generation of datalinks are installed in recent PLAAF aircraft?

article first appear wforum.com/wmf last year,(June?),in fact I posted the article either in J-10,orAWAC or SU-27 threat, recall I am surprised there is no reply from the article.
it was short summary of PLAAF development of data link,according to the article,bit transfer rate is very very low at 500 bit/sec.but giving the chinese technology at the time is not surprise,around 1987 PLAN purchased french make data link call Link-W,which is compatible to US TADIL-L.
article also mention TDMA technology and currently developing a own equivalent of JTIDS. But there is possbility that PLAAF may using Link-11.
saude E-3A and ROCAF also uses link-11.but already upgraded to link-16.
 

oringo

Junior Member
Re: New J-10 Thread III

Link 16 is obsolete, generations behind the latest civil telephony technologies. Maybe the PLA's own communications infrastructure is obsolete and has not been upgraded, but the country's technological capabilities to develop a far more advanced datalink is there. After all, a data link is nothing but a computer to computer protocol. Also it has nothing to say what the PLAAF maybe using on their own, considering all the satlinks the J-10 has.

Like I said, Link 16 is an eighties TDMA technology, simply reformatted to military protocols. Its bit rate is comparable to first gen celphones, which means even slower than GSM/GPRS.

But keep in mind electronics parts used in military technology has always been generations behind the cutting edge in commercial technology for sake of reliable parts. Mil-1553B bus is only 1mbps, yet it's still being used (even on J-10!) Many ASIC parts used on US military are still being produced using 0.5um CMOS process, which is 80s technology. But these transistors just get the jobs done!

True China may have commercial implementations of the state-of-the-art wireless technology, but it does not mean the electronics industry got the quality and reliability down. Phones can break in a few month and only work in room temperatures, but a plane needs to work in extreme environments without failing.

As to the cell phone reception in China. It's not because their phones are better. They are simply allowed to transmit more power, period. Another example, I can buy a 500mW tx power wireless dongle in China and run it legally, but here in US, the limit is 20mW. Obviously the 500mW wireless dongle will appear to work better!
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: New J-10 Thread III

I'm pretty sure they got their electronics down pat considering they could launch theirs at the extreme cold in space and maintain operation for long periods. And no, plane electronics aren't directly exposed to harsh environments because they are inherently protected.

And no, celphone reception isn't about power. Who told you that? If all devices are allowed to transmit more power, then so is the amount of potential interference becomes much greater too. Wireless telephonies is about mastering and managing interference.
 

Quickie

Colonel
Re: New J-10 Thread III

As to the cell phone reception in China. It's not because their phones are better. They are simply allowed to transmit more power, period. Another example, I can buy a 500mW tx power wireless dongle in China and run it legally, but here in US, the limit is 20mW. Obviously the 500mW wireless dongle will appear to work better!


More transmit power doesn't always equate to better reception; it can lead to signal echo problems. The limit is 20mw or 200mW? Furthermore, the 500mW could be the input power to dongle and not the signal output power.

I don't think signal quality can be solved by increasing power alone, beyond the background noises.
 
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crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: New J-10 Thread III

Also another thing, it does not explain why many foreign branded phones work perfectly in China as well.

Also no wireless device element can transmit anything over 20 watts. That's actually the current limit of MMICs, and even the elements inside an AESA antenna cannot exceed that number per element. Even with GaN, you're probably looking at 40 or 50 watts but you get edgy with the reliability. If you're transmitting at 50 watts, then you're in the cutting edge of telecom MMIC and AESA element technology and everyone should envy you for your clear technological superiority. Commercial silicon based MMICs generally produce only about a watt of transmission power, generally the stuff you see in cordless phones, celphones, wireless routers and dongles. Making more powerful MMICs only makes the device more expensive to boot, which isn't in line if you're trying to make the product as affordable as possible.
 
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