Three gorges dam

plawolf

Lieutenant General
So someone else has build a TGD sized dam before?

When you do something pioneering, you often find yourself beset by problems no one else has faced before. Or the local conditions might be different enough to produced markedly different results as similar projects elsewhere or countless other unforseeable factors could have been at play.

You are simply vastly overestimating how well humans can predict their impact on the environment. Just look at all the debate about the ture, full impact of greenhouse gas emissions or raising global temperatures or even how unreliable things like the weather report has become.

The nature of life means things you don't expect might, and probably will come up when you do something.

Instead of hiding the negatives, the Chinese acknowledge them and are taking measures to correct or mitigate them. That is a mature responsible attitude. But it's amusing the western media still tries their hardest to portay it as a negative.
 
Being rather selective about what to quote to support your point of view isn't it?

The article I posted talked about both the pros and cons of the 3 Gorges Dam. But it seems the negatives were conveniently ignored.

Question: If the project was so well thought out and managed, why the need to spend 124 billion yuan over the next 10 years to fix the problems? It's not as if the dam was just completed.

So you've never went through any dilemmas in life where you needed to select an action that will still carry a consequence that you need to follow up on? If that's true, I either congratulate you to have never landed on these situations, but also pity you for your lack of life experiences, which rendered you unable to understand that not every decisions in life doesn't have a cost.

Also I don't know what's the point of your question. It's equivalent to asking "If the US military is so strong, why spend +$USD700b/a to maintain the military."
 
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Schumacher

Senior Member
....Question: If the project was so well thought out and managed, why the need to spend 124 billion yuan over the next 10 years to fix the problems? It's not as if the dam was just completed.

124 billion yuan ~= US$19 billion over 10 years ? I didn't know this but wow, that's actually a very low figure when you consider the electricity generated, the CO2 that would otherwise have been generated by coal plant, the flood and drought prevention contributions, navigation up the river etc.
Seriously, US$19 billion of maintenance over 10 years for such a massive project is quite good when you compare it with other "well thought out and managed" projects like say F35, F22 etc, and last time I checked, they don't generate any CO2 savings or save lives from floods/drought.
 

Red___Sword

Junior Member
Guys, as of today, you should have read news about "Astonishing rain fall hit previous-drought China" already?

I am not continuing the above really-non-fruitful debate of whether TGD cause this or cause that, but regarding the drought itself - it appeals it is a globle wether changing causes the usually-rain-season has delayed. And now, after "can't take it anymore", the usually-flooded-now-weirdly-drought-region, has hit by the delayed "usual" rain fall.

Has it not to be the efforts of TGD, kind-hearted people among you, are already donating money, to help flood-hit region, now. (China is now "flood-hit", but no excessive loss, exactly thanks to TGD).

Yeah, TGD caused THAT globle climate change... I thought SDF is a place where members do not give too much damn, to eye-catching public media.

Edit:

Someone really likes to "play claims", and it is rude to ignore those claims too many times.

Regarding the "huge spending" after the TGD's completion - first I admit TGD got pros and cons, as if driving a car can result in deaths - Your (not specific, generally second person view. "your") public transportation system, how many years dose it take to "do a maintain / service"? - 3, 5 years maybe? - how many freaking cry outs do you have when ever you are taking a freaking public transport? - do you freaking toss your public transport system aside, having so much freaking cry outs?

And yeah, like Schumacher stated, someone should search for the cost of your (not specific, generally second person view. "your") subway / MRT system, the overall bills, starting from the early days when you have only 1 line functioning (TGD is not "finished", it has mutlple phases still on-going. - It didn't stunt the freaking whole world for no reason. - the upgrading of existing generator turbine for one, is a "never-stopping-need") You can screw your own city's subway / public transportation, every time you feel necessary; you just can't live without it.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
Being rather selective about what to quote to support your point of view isn't it?

The article I posted talked about both the pros and cons of the 3 Gorges Dam. But it seems the negatives were conveniently ignored.

Question: If the project was so well thought out and managed, why the need to spend 124 billion yuan over the next 10 years to fix the problems? It's not as if the dam was just completed.

No, I was selectively quoting to respond to flawed arguments in the article.

As for the cost of maintenance, why do you think 124 billion yuan over 10 years is so outrageous? Just because it's a big number with lots of zeros at the end?

From
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The State Grid Corporation and China Southern Power Grid paid a flat rate of ¥250 per MWh ($35.7 US) until July 2, 2008. Since then, the price has varied by province, from ¥228.7-401.8 per MWh. Higher-paying customers receive priority, such as the city of Shanghai.[45] Nine provinces and two cities consume power from the dam.[46]

Here's a little math: 1 TWh = 1,000 GWh = 1,000,000 MWh.

The cost per MWh varies, with those cities using more power paying higher price per unit. Let's assume that we can take the average: (228.7 + 401.8)/2 = ¥315.25.

The dam's annual power generation capacity is designed to be 84.7 TWh. Let's round it down to 80 TWh.

¥315 * 80 * 1,000,000 = 25,200,000,000 -- or 252 billion yuan over 10 years in electricity revenue.

Why is 124 billion yuan in maintenance over 10 years so outrageous again?
 

RainMaker

Just Hatched
Registered Member
I used to be for the Damn. As a lover of history, I was greatly saddened by the destruction of so many cultural artifacts. The flooded areas could have yielded evidence of Chinese civilization predating the Sumerians or Catal Ayuk, Turkey. I only supported the damn with the belief in clean hydrodynamic electric power generation. I felt that China could not afford to continue her coal power stations without air quality deterioration.

I recently watched the documentary FLOW. It was about water rights and the future fight for ever scarcer clean water. In it I discovered a horrific fact. Damns ARE NOT environmentally friendly after all. Flowing water brings vast amounts of nutrients across massive landscapes. Damning that water creates more stagnant and less oxygenated water. It has more ppms from the silt and worst of all. This all combines to kill more of the wildlife. The water then fills with decaying matter and releases methane and Co2. Even more than an inefficient coal burning power plant!!!

Now the extermination of numerous species such as the world's largest freshwater fish, the Chinese paddlefish. Has lead me to reverse my opinion of the Three Gorges Damn. I feel this project has cost China so much cultural identity because of the fact that the damn will create more pollution and environmental damage than the previous intermittent floodings. The amount of displaced people as well as wasted material and manpower are truly reminiscent of the "China Syndrome". I never would have fathomed the Three Gorges Damn could create more pollution than a coal burning power plant.

Again LIKE ALL OF YOU, I once was fed PROPAGANDA about the clean energy hydrodynamic electric power creates. It is NOW clear these damns slow down water flow and create more stagnant and less oxygenated water. Aerobic organisms hence die in mass. This decaying organic matter releases methane from the bacterial breakdown of the matter itself. Methane is worse than just Co2 as a Greenhouse gas. In fact, depending on the size of the damn, it can be worse than a coal burning power plant. It is biology and chemistry in action. All you have to do is THINK ABOUT IT! Now without questioning how the silt building up at the damn is having detrimental environmental effects beyond merely impeding water flow. It also contributes to destroying the habitable water quality. It also serves as a collection point for hazardous industrial wastes in the water table itself. The destruction of the archeological artifacts is clear. However coupled with the fact that the LARGEST damn in the world is the TGD, it is clear this is a major source of methane and hence creates more pollution in the form of Greenhouse gases than comparable coal burning power plants. It is similar to the myth about Natural Gas being so environmentally friendly. The scientific facts cannot be ignored. False propaganda is easily digested because people don’t understand the science behind the claims.

LOL, I'm sure if you were alive in the Qin dynasty, you'd only give 10 years to the Great Wall as well.

If there's one thing the Chinese are good at, it's large-scale infrastructure projects.

China is also good at creating the largest self made disaster in ALL of human history, The Great Leap Forward. NEVER have so many people died because of incompetent leaders. The Qin wall also did not last that long. Today it is the Ming wall that everyone regards as the pinnacle of Chinese engineering. It was the largest human engineering project in the entire history of the world until the USA federal freeway system was made in the 50s.

Like the Qin Dynasty the present Chinese government must not be so rigid as to not allow objective scientific reexaminations. Checks and balances are what keep people honest so to speak. Irrational and harsh demands for energy should not forsake the environmental consequences. There is only so much available CLEAN fresh water left in China. China should not follow the pattern of the USA where according to the EPA, over 90% of all fresh water bodies are contaminated.

Mistakes are always going to happen. However large super scale infrastructure projects need greater discrepancy due to the fact that the scale of problems would be exponentially amplified if something were to go wrong. Just like the USA learned with the largest oil spill in US history. The human race had better be more careful with her energy production, refining and distribution.

That's some really flawed thinking right there. Just going along with the typical Western cliche.

No, the CCP administration doesn't admit flaws just because they become really serious. They acknowledge flaws when:

1- there is a public outcry about it
2- a faction tries to use said issues to oust another faction
3- they don't mind the flaws being public knowledge

As for the dam itself, some people are always willing to jump on whatever reason they can find to support their position, lack of evidence be damned.

The article itself states:

Actually there is an overwhelming plethora of evidence about how damns harm ecosystems especially related to drought downstream of the damn. In the Western USA many damns have blocked the salmon and steelhead from returning to their traditional and natural spawning grounds. It has been proven that over 90% of the nitrogen that feeds the forests in the Pacific Northwest come from spawning salmon. Long term these ecosystems will gradually decay from lack of nutrients.


China will also face similar issues such as a lack mineral redistribution in her soil. This is a major loss for agriculture and wild flora, from a long term sustainable perspective. Not only will yields suffer, but the nutritional values will decrease. The local landscape from the tailwater of the damn, will suffer the most.

Finally I feel your third claim is extremely rare for any government. You never want any other nation or entity to know your dirty laundry. If you are responsible government you warn your people and prevent dangerous energy projects from encroaching on native communities. If you lie to your people like the Japanese Government did, then you get the current TEPCO nuclear disaster. China can ill afford to make the same mistakes as Japan did.
 
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atoll80

New Member
Yep, this is proof that ambition and reality walk into different way. For China national pride has blinded them.
I heard one of their scientist say in CCTV about Three Gorges Dam, that they try to "teach" sturgeon fish to lay their eggs in lower part of river instead upper river, even this fish had doing this for Million of years! What a dumb! If they thirst of energy why they didn't build solar energy mega project in Taklamakan or Gobi desert?
 

solarz

Brigadier
Again LIKE ALL OF YOU, I once was fed PROPAGANDA about the clean energy hydrodynamic electric power creates. It is NOW clear these damns slow down water flow and create more stagnant and less oxygenated water. Aerobic organisms hence die in mass. This decaying organic matter releases methane from the bacterial breakdown of the matter itself. Methane is worse than just Co2 as a Greenhouse gas. In fact, depending on the size of the damn, it can be worse than a coal burning power plant. It is biology and chemistry in action. All you have to do is THINK ABOUT IT! Now without questioning how the silt building up at the damn is having detrimental environmental effects beyond merely impeding water flow. It also contributes to destroying the habitable water quality. It also serves as a collection point for hazardous industrial wastes in the water table itself. The destruction of the archeological artifacts is clear. However coupled with the fact that the LARGEST damn in the world is the TGD, it is clear this is a major source of methane and hence creates more pollution in the form of Greenhouse gases than comparable coal burning power plants. It is similar to the myth about Natural Gas being so environmentally friendly. The scientific facts cannot be ignored. False propaganda is easily digested because people don’t understand the science behind the claims.

I think you need to learn more science.

Aerobic organisms die all the time. They are part of the natural carbon cycle. Fossil fuels are problematic because they were locked away from the cycle millions of years ago. The reason fossil fuels cause climate change is because the current natural carbon cycle cannot deal with this sudden influx of carbon that had been locked away over millions of years.

Methane gas is many times worse than CO2, but it exists as a tiny fraction of greenhouse gases. CO2 is by far the most important GHG of relevance.

You claim that the dam can be worse than *a* coal power plant, yet the TGD produces power equivalent to 18 coal power plants! 18 for the price of 1, that's a pretty good deal!

China is also good at creating the largest self made disaster in ALL of human history, The Great Leap Forward. NEVER have so many people died because of incompetent leaders. The Qin wall also did not last that long. Today it is the Ming wall that everyone regards as the pinnacle of Chinese engineering. It was the largest human engineering project in the entire history of the world until the USA federal freeway system was made in the 50s.

Like the Qin Dynasty the present Chinese government must not be so rigid as to not allow objective scientific reexaminations. Checks and balances are what keep people honest so to speak. Irrational and harsh demands for energy should not forsake the environmental consequences. There is only so much available CLEAN fresh water left in China. China should not follow the pattern of the USA where according to the EPA, over 90% of all fresh water bodies are contaminated.

Mistakes are always going to happen. However large super scale infrastructure projects need greater discrepancy due to the fact that the scale of problems would be exponentially amplified if something were to go wrong. Just like the USA learned with the largest oil spill in US history. The human race had better be more careful with her energy production, refining and distribution.

The Great Leap Forward was not due to the building of a large-scale infrastructure project, so your premise is irrelevant. And judging by the way you misunderstand science, you should not be telling the Chinese government how to do their scientific examinations.

Actually there is an overwhelming plethora of evidence about how damns harm ecosystems especially related to drought downstream of the damn. In the Western USA many damns have blocked the salmon and steelhead from returning to their traditional and natural spawning grounds. It has been proven that over 90% of the nitrogen that feeds the forests in the Pacific Northwest come from spawning salmon. Long term these ecosystems will gradually decay from lack of nutrients.

China will also face similar issues such as a lack mineral redistribution in her soil. This is a major loss for agriculture and wild flora, from a long term sustainable perspective. Not only will yields suffer, but the nutritional values will decrease. The local landscape from the tailwater of the damn, will suffer the most.

This is a straw man argument. No one is denying the environmental impact of the TGD. However, critics like you are ignoring the plethora of benefits that the dam creates. As another poster linked to an article previously, resolving these environmental issues will cost roughly 50% of the dam's revenue. Therefore, it remains economically feasible to mitigate TGD's environmental impact all the while enjoying its positive aspects.


Finally I feel your third claim is extremely rare for any government. You never want any other nation or entity to know your dirty laundry. If you are responsible government you warn your people and prevent dangerous energy projects from encroaching on native communities. If you lie to your people like the Japanese Government did, then you get the current TEPCO nuclear disaster. China can ill afford to make the same mistakes as Japan did.

What makes you think the Chinese government will do anything like the Japanese government did with TEPCO? 2008 was a huge wake up call, and as tragic as they were, the Tibet riots and Sichuan earthquake were both invaluable lessons for the Chinese government.


atoll said:
Yep, this is proof that ambition and reality walk into different way. For China national pride has blinded them.
I heard one of their scientist say in CCTV about Three Gorges Dam, that they try to "teach" sturgeon fish to lay their eggs in lower part of river instead upper river, even this fish had doing this for Million of years! What a dumb! If they thirst of energy why they didn't build solar energy mega project in Taklamakan or Gobi desert?

And what makes you think they're not thinking of doing just that? And what makes you think those solar energy projects:

1- Will provide enough cost-effective energy?
2- Will have less of an environmental impact than TGD, when built to produce a comparable amount of power?

No offense, but I wouldn't criticize scientists when I can't even think through on the logical consequences of my statements!
 

i.e.

Senior Member
I predict couple of years from now if a major flood season hit they would also blame it on the 3-gorge dam.

Oh my , it's flooding in Lower Yangtze Region,

it's dam's fault.

dam if rain, dam if you don't.

whatever it is, just blame the dam.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
The 'evil' CCP and their even more 'evil' doomsday weather pattern changing machine the TGD strike again. The victims now are the 'kind, innocent, peace-loving, freedom-loving, good-looking' etc etc people of America. :)

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