Thoughts on Shanghai

oops, I accidentally noticed you quoted my post :)

... But on the other hand, in terms of everyday life, China can be one of the freest and least authoritarian place amongst the of all the places I have been.

...

I wonder if people in China can browse the net to the extent of following this discussion here ... just asking
 

broadsword

Brigadier
Good to know who here migrated out of China so I know whose opinion on China is more relevant. I always wonder about life in China, but do not know who or where to ask as to whether what the media publish is propaganda or not.

In my young days, I was confused by what the media apprise the people about the negativities of China. Therefore, I believe some form of censorship is necessary to shield their people from the West's propaganda that disguises itself as hip, mainstream and romantic.
 
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wtlh

Junior Member
oops, I accidentally noticed you quoted my post :)

I wonder if people in China can browse the net to the extent of following this discussion here ... just asking

There exists tonnes of internet forums in China where people discuss---"discuss" is a too polite word to use---almost all aspects of life, and yes include politics.

There used to be a joke in the Chinese internet forums where a guy lamented that (excuse my poor translation)

"On internet, we discuss things as small as soy sources and cooking oil, and as large as national and international politics, and it has become almost a rule that every discussion will degenerate very quickly into personal insults and verbal abuses with the worst kind of profanity possible; the only exception are in porn forums, where all people are all so polite and civilised: 'Thank you, poster, you are great', "May you have a long and happy life"."

In reality, the censorship is really overplayed by the Western media. Unless you are a political activist, the censorship really does not affect your everyday life. And it is not like people are not allowed to talk about politics. People talk about government policies, and complain about them, pass judgement on national, local leaders etc on line all the time. The censorship only kicks in when the discussion is related to elements and current events that are considered destabilising factors, and which are judged to cause incitement to social unrest. And even then, the most common result is that your post gets deleted, certain words replaced by stars, or that you receive a warning from the moderator to tone down the rhetoric. Actually not too dissimilar to this forum.

At the end of the day, you have to ask how many people actually are that interested in politics or serious about it anyway? And again, how many people in China are really that interested in watching Western media channels? If anything, people watching Western media channels everyday would probably do great harm to Sino-Western relationships. Given all the negative stuff these Western media tends to say about China, it would only make most people hard-core nationalists.

Seriously, I have known a lot of Chinese students who turned from very anti-CCP and having a positive view of everything West when in China, to hard-core nationalists after a few years studying in the UK or other Western countries. All thanks to the mainstream Western rhetorics on everything related to China. And the line I have heard most akin to "I have never realised how much I loved my country until I came abroad and studied".

And does this kind of political censorship really cause a great restriction to average people's lives? My wife has absolutely zero interest in politics, and objects me watching even this board or news articles during the evenings for not talking to her instead. She is a bigger censor than the Chinese government ever would or can be. When I was back in China (almost every year), I usually do not have much time sitting in front of a computer in free times, let alone browse the internet. There are A LOT of other things one can do in the evenings in China.

And internet forums are already quickly losing its crowd and interest in China, even social media sites like Ren Ren, which is a clone of Facebook are rapidly losing appeal. People have moved on to mobile social media platforms, like Wechat or Sina Weibo. And my wife is constantly hooked onto them, and believe me or not, there are tonnes of politics related stuff in some of the microblogs---my wife ignores them as usual, of course.

As a matter of fact, if you really want to use some of the banned services like some of the Google tools, or insist on reading Falungong websites, then it is not like it is hard. There are tones of proxy softwares and servers (thanks to NED et al no less) floating in the Chinese web sphere that, you can just grab one, install it, and do whatever you want in and out the great firewall. I have used one version once to access CDF many years ago, when we still used dialup modems (I am not sure if it is still blocked). Most of the people I know use these tools for porn, rather than watching what the western people has to say about politics.

You may or may not think the Chinese are not currently free people, but then again, what are you or me to pass general judgements to people we hardly know, based on your or my own values and experiences?
 
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wtlh

Junior Member
Wow, that's pretty crazy. I can't imagine getting a criminal record over a fricking train ticket!

Over here in Canada, it would be unthinkable that such things would fall under the criminal code.

No joke, seriously I have never before thought that train fares fall under the criminal code, until I got bitten (the whole episode dragged on for almost 4 months, court summons had been issued and I lost something like 10 kg in weight as a result from the stress and anxiety of it all, and was in the end more than willing to pay any amount they ask just to avoid the criminal record and be done with it. They finally agreed to an settlement a few days before the court date). Most people in the UK does not know either, everyone I have spoken to thought at worst it would just be like a parking ticket, which is a civil matter. The only people who knew, seemed to be the people working in ticket inspections, the prosecutors and people like me, who got bitten. But apparently it is quite common that it is a criminal offence in a lot of European countries.

As a matter of fact, since then I have realised a lot of things in the UK fall under criminal matters, and felling foul of any one of them could potentially land you with a criminal record---which you then have to declare in job applications, or inform your employer. For example, you can get prosecuted---and there was a girl who on the same forum I have sought help for, did---for putting legs up the seats on a train. Apparently that also falls under the railway act, which is part of the criminal code. Bus fares are the same. According to official Transport for London statistics, there are several thousands of people successfully prosecuted for fare violations each year in London area alone---and they seemed to have adopted a policy of prosecute whenever possible, and only issue penalty fares (aka fines) as a discretionary favour. Every single one of these comes with a criminal record attached.

Once you get a criminal record, it actually never gets wiped or deleted. They just "expire" for most jobs after a set number of years. For certain jobs, like teachers, police, judiciary, financial etc you will have to declare it for the rest of your life, and is counted as a detriment factor. And if you apply for a visa to the US, you will have to declare it every time.

People in fact have written to their MPs complaining about the disproportionality of the punishments for fare infringements, but to no avail. The people who got bitten by the system always remain a minority, and the train companies have large lobby groups, and their bosses are in friends with the politicians. At the best, you get a sympathetic reply from the MP, and in most cases, you get a standard reply letter, or even no reply and nothing happens or follows thereafter. The supposedly "independent" transport watch dogs do not support you either, because you nominally have broken the law, and when you find out about it later, it is crawling with ex-rail employees and inspectors.

In fact, I suggest you to check your local laws and regulations for sure, as I presume Canada and UK have similar legal systems? Sometimes common sense does not apply in legal matters, as I have found out.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
No joke, seriously I have never before thought that train fares fall under the criminal code, until I got bitten (the whole episode dragged on for almost 4 months, court summons had been issued and I lost something like 10 kg in weight as a result from the stress and anxiety of it all, and was in the end more than willing to pay any amount they ask just to avoid the criminal record and be done with it. They finally agreed to an settlement a few days before the court date). Most people in the UK does not know either, everyone I have spoken to thought at worst it would just be like a parking ticket, which is a civil matter. The only people who knew, seemed to be the people working in ticket inspections, the prosecutors and people like me, who got bitten. But apparently it is quite common that it is a criminal offence in a lot of European countries.

As a matter of fact, since then I have realised a lot of things in the UK fall under criminal matters, and felling foul of any one of them could potentially land you with a criminal record---which you then have to declare in job applications, or inform your employer. For example, you can get prosecuted---and there was a girl who on the same forum I have sought help for, did---for putting legs up the seats on a train. Apparently that also falls under the railway act, which is part of the criminal code. Bus fares are the same. According to official Transport for London statistics, there are several thousands of people successfully prosecuted for fare violations each year in London area alone---and they seemed to have adopted a policy of prosecute whenever possible, and only issue penalty fares (aka fines) as a discretionary favour. Every single one of these comes with a criminal record attached.

Once you get a criminal record, it actually never gets wiped or deleted. They just "expire" for most jobs after a set number of years. For certain jobs, like teachers, police, judiciary, financial etc you will have to declare it for the rest of your life, and is counted as a detriment factor. And if you apply for a visa to the US, you will have to declare it every time.

People in fact have written to their MPs complaining about the disproportionality of the punishments for fare infringements, but to no avail. The people who got bitten by the system always remain a minority, and the train companies have large lobby groups, and their bosses are in friends with the politicians. At the best, you get a sympathetic reply from the MP, and in most cases, you get a standard reply letter, or even no reply and nothing happens or follows thereafter. The supposedly "independent" transport watch dogs do not support you either, because you nominally have broken the law, and when you find out about it later, it is crawling with ex-rail employees and inspectors.

In fact, I suggest you to check your local laws and regulations for sure, as I presume Canada and UK have similar legal systems? Sometimes common sense does not apply in legal matters, as I have found out.

Damn... I'm glad I don't live in Europe, lol!

I'm 99.99% sure that over here it's just a fine. I used to take the train to work, and I've actually seen people get ticketed for failing to buy a ticket.

My wife got fined once for using a post-secondary month pass on the subway without proper student identification. It was just a fine, nothing more.
 

solarz

Brigadier
oops, I accidentally noticed you quoted my post :)

I wonder if people in China can browse the net to the extent of following this discussion here ... just asking

Note that of the major sites blocked in China (FB, Youtube), they are operated by companies headquartered in the US. Even though they comply with all American laws regarding their operations, they are not willing to comply with Chinese laws. Hence why they are blocked in China.

You will probably say that those laws involve censorship. I would point out that American laws also involve censorship, and even invasion of privacy, but those companies have no problem complying with American laws.

In the end, like any other corporation, if one is not willing to comply with a country's laws, then one should not expect to do business in that country.
 

wtlh

Junior Member
Damn... I'm glad I don't live in Europe, lol!

I'm 99.99% sure that over here it's just a fine. I used to take the train to work, and I've actually seen people get ticketed for failing to buy a ticket.

My wife got fined once for using a post-secondary month pass on the subway without proper student identification. It was just a fine, nothing more.

That was what I thought and have seen too. It all depends on the inspector (his mood presumably), because he has the discretion of just handing out a fine---technically, not a "fine" but a "penalty", as only courts can issue fines, and that comes with criminal record---or even just let you to buy a standard ticket. But in the background, the law has given the train companies much more power than that, and if they want to prosecute you, they probably can, and you have about zero chance to fight back.

I was perhaps one of the unlucky ones, and the London transport bosses seems to take a very hard line. On the other hand, I was perhaps also one of the luckiest few, because I found out later from official statistics they publish that the chances of them agreeing to settle outside the court was like 1%. And on average, about half are given penalties on spot, and half are prosecuted.
 
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Janiz

Senior Member
Yes I think the points raised above is very very true. Many Westerners need to really travel to China or maybe even live there to get a real taste of how life is like in China, instead of just mindlessly absorbing information from the media.
Well, people like to talk how Koreans and Chinese are confucian societies. Yet, when Koreans are abroad, they tend to hook up with Japanese instead of Chinese because the Korean and Japanese culture is more similar to each other than Korean and Chinese. And Japanese are surely the most 'westernized' culture in the East Asia... Pretty interesting thing, isn't it?
On paper, China is authoritarian in Western eyes, in the sense of the state censorships, and general tendency to requiring obedience to the state, and adherence to given guidelines for anything of importance that are to be made public. But on the other hand, in terms of everyday life, China can be one of the freest and least authoritarian place amongst the of all the places I have been.
Yeah, noticed that with rare Philippine rare turtles, Korean fishes or Japanese red coral poaching lately. Unfortunately, many Chinese tend to 'export' those kind of values abroad instead of keeping them at home and that creates international tensions.
 
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wtlh

Junior Member
Well, people like to talk how Koreans and Chinese are confucian societies. Yet, when Koreans are abroad, they tend to hook up with Japanese instead of Chinese because the Korean and Japanese culture is more similar to each other than Korean and Chinese. And Japanese are surely the most 'westernized' culture in the East Asia... Pretty interesting thing, isn't it?

Errr... I am Chinese, and one of my best friends is Korean. In fact, some of our best family friends are Korean, and we treat each other almost like relatives. The father of the Korean family has left for a professorship in Seul, and since then we get food packages sent regularly from SK; and whenever he comes back for business he always comes to see us if he has time, and I treat him as my own uncle. I have also a few Japanese friends. And I find the Japanese who comes directly from Japan bond with me better than with the other European colleagues and friends.

So no need for crude generalisation here based on one's own prejudice.

There are a lot similarities culturally between the three countries. It is normal, because these nations have communicated and interacted for over a thousand years, and share the same part of the world.

It is also normal for Koreans to share many similar everyday habits with the Japanese: Korea was a Japanese colony for many decades remember? And after that, they both fall in the US sphere of dominance, and are heavily influenced by the US in politics, ideology as well as social life. Many of the Japanese and Koreans are baseball fans, for example, just like India and Pakistan are cricket nations.

Yeah, noticed that with rare Philippine rare turtles, Korean fishes or Japanese red coral poaching lately. Unfortunately, many Chinese tend to 'export' those kind of values abroad instead of keeping them at home and that creates international tensions.

These kind of comments tell me only about your own prejudices.
 
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