The World's 4th, 4.5 & 5th Generation Fighters

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

born2kill said:

A round shape for an IRST is better for the sensor itself. The F-35's attempts to make an angle-shaped IRST sensor pod resulted in poor performance as reports indicate.

So perhaps Russia is looking for some other shapes that could possibly solve both the requirement of stealth and the requirement of performance, and meanwhile just placed an ordinary pod on the prototype.

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I knew about the round shape housing for infrared sensors, but I didn't read how the F-35's angular infrared sensor housing resulted in poor performance. Tell me more.

Anyhow, what's your explanation for the slow acceptance of all-around infrared sensors? Mine is cost-to-gain ratios. Maybe the cost of all-around infrared sensors on 200 to 1000 jet fighters is too high, but with improvements in manufacturing and enhanced threats, the costs will go down while the gain will go up.

How much do you think the PAK-FA will improve when it begins mass production, and what improvements will be made?

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

You see, an angled shape is worse for an IRST by default, because it leads to optical... distortions, is that right? The U.S. approach was that it's unnecessary to worsen the already not-ideal RCS of the F-35 by a round IRST. The optical distortion issues don't get much publicity, but anyone with a knowledge of physics would know why the circular lens is better than broken angled ones.

The current pod installed on the PAK FA is a standard Su-3X family pod, as far as I see, and will quite likely be replaced by a somehow stealthified version for the production run. Because it would make no sense to spoil the RCS of a 5-gen frame by pesky details.

The PAK-FA would improve a lot; what we saw now is the "5 generation frame" - a hull and engines, but quite probably without the internals. The one sure thing (noted even officially IIRC) is that the cockpit glass will be rehauled into an archless one, etc.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter



Chinese experts unanimously found after the sub-study Russia T-50 can not be considered beautiful, and the performance definitely not as good as F-22 .
The Russian fifth generation fighter "T-50" 29 day test flight for the first time. China's "weapons knowledge" magazine deputy editor Xion in the day to accept an interview on the aircraft was briefly Comments.

He said the first flight from the existing information and the circumstances, the Russian T-50 could hardly compete with the U.S. F-22 "Raptor" fighter par.

He explained that, T-50's shape and F-22 is indeed a resemblance, but the current evaluation of an advanced fighter aircraft whether or not mainly depends on how its information technology equipment.

In recent years, judging from the exhibition, the Russian fighter in the information and data chain is not like the United States. He said, F-22 main features is the powerful information technology.

Xiong also said that there are already reports that, T-50 engine is the old-fashioned. He said the aircraft fuselage with the tail exposed parts of the engine really is not very coordinated, "one should be pretty good airplane.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

born2kill said:

It does not matter how it "looks" to a human eye - what matters is the RCS and how the radar sees it.

It's an unpainted prototype with many things still to perfect. A serial production run, when coated with RAM and fully painted, me thinks, would look no less impressive than an F-22 or F-35.

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Really so what about Boeing 747 then? We can't assume it being not stealthy then?

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

born2kill said:

You see, an angled shape is worse for an IRST by default, because it leads to optical... distortions, is that right? The U.S. approach was that it's unnecessary to worsen the already not-ideal RCS of the F-35 by a round IRST. The optical distortion issues don't get much publicity, but anyone with a knowledge of physics would know why the circular lens is better than broken angled ones.

The current pod installed on the PAK FA is a standard Su-3X family pod, as far as I see, and will quite likely be replaced by a somehow stealthified version for the production run. Because it would make no sense to spoil the RCS of a 5-gen frame by pesky details.

The PAK-FA would improve a lot; what we saw now is the "5 generation frame" - a hull and engines, but quite probably without the internals. The one sure thing (noted even officially IIRC) is that the cockpit glass will be rehauled into an archless one, etc.

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The optical distortions occur at and around the bend or angle. Yes, this is basic physics. However, the JSF has multiple infrared sensors, and the JSF can coordinate the sensors to cover each single sensor's blind spots or weak spots. The result is stealthy housing for the infrared sensors and all-around infrared sensors. The marketing information and videos seem awesome, but those are marketing info. I have read various government, corporate, and civilian sources saying the JSF's all-around infrared sensors are working well. Please give me Internet sources claiming the JSF has infrared sensors with poor performance.

I was hoping you would give me sources on a list of PAK-FA future improvements, or new information from your perspective. Other forum members already suggested improving the PAK-FA's canoy/windshield, rear end, engine exhausts, bottom shape, paint job and overall build quality for the surface, and other obvious things. I already suggested improving the infrared sensor's housing, and developing an all-around infrared view. I think the PAK-FA's front compartment holds the SRAAM, but I think this setup could significantly limit the SRAAM's view.




I read Chinese news (don't know its accuracy) saying the Chinese J-XX may be mass produced starting 2020, but China is working for an earlier date. I think the PAK-FA may be mass produced starting 2015 to 2018.

The F-22 costs between $140 to $350 million per plane depending on how you do the math: . I read the F-22 may be exported to Japan at around $250 million per plane. I wonder how well the finished PAK-FA will perform against the F-22A and F-22 future variants (by 2015 to 2018, the F-22B may exist), and how much each PAK-FA will cost.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

Infra_Man99 said:

However, the JSF has multiple infrared sensors, and the JSF can coordinate the sensors to cover each single sensor's blind spots or weak spots. ... Please give me Internet sources claiming the JSF has infrared sensors with poor performance.

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If you think software can easily and seamlessly get rid of whatever errors result from the angled cage, I think you are mistaken. But please, bring forward a statement that the EOTS pod has multiple IR sensors? The pod has 1 optical camera, 1 IR sensor and 1 laser, as far as I know. You can see it in the photo from Le Bourge.

I don't spend time reading internet articles; I like to chat with insiders in the defence industry far more. So I can't really say what improvements to the PAK FA will be "really" made until I know from trusted men. Speculating is worthless.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

Bltizo said:

I doubt the flight has much to do with the CCTV interview - the scheduale for a 2009 flight was made way before the CCTV interview, and the "detailed accounts" of the time frame were basically "it will fly very soon".

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I will not get into a [you said I said debate] here with anyone therefore if you insist that the CCTV airing have no impact on the PAK FA (which is a joint venture project), then so be it -- the CCTV airing had no impact on the PAK FA then.

The T-50 flight obviously was pushed back due to a number of reasons, but I think you're seeing connections which aren't there.

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Well... I'm known for being the most suspicious SoB there ever existed in this earth... In other words I don't believe in green aliens walking about in three legs ; a couple of spotlights in their forehead for visuals ; and antenna's as amongst one of its sixth senses... I believe in black projects and I believe in X-files ...

The Russians and Indians (don't call them ruski, indi - it's like calling Chinese people "chinky", which is a tad insulting) aren't so immature that they would rush forward a plane's first flight because of an announcement from a tv show (though I am not questioning the interview's credibility).

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Hell, Bltizo, I wasn't sure why they call us (chini boys) Chini Chinis but hell if I care... As long as they don't call me an SOB, I'll get a hell of laugh out of it so let's not be picky about this because we sure as the heck don't want popeye to jump on us over nothing now do we ???

And of course it's not fully ready - this was stated clearly in a number of news reports - but take into account that all the artist depictions which are similar to the T-50 show rounded engine exhausts as well not unsimilar to it's present form.

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Hey! Don't get me wrong here. I'm merely trying to present the facts as I see them (via sources from the net)... I did say in the onset of this T-50 thingy here that I'm keeping an open mind on this one until all of the experts (These experts can not be anyone from this board because there plenty of arm chair generals and arm chair engineers here) from the field, i.e., Jane's and Richard Fisher had pours their hearts out over it...

Besides, the J-XX is expected to not be in its full configuration when it makes the first flight (no WS-15, for one) so the T-50 is not such an exception.

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Again, I'm not trying to contradict what you are saying here but who knows, this move by the Russian Bear
/Bengal Tiger partnership, regardless if was by pressure from CCTV on Task or by pressure from Task on CCTV, something strange is definitely brewing here but sadly, it's in Hanzi ( a planet next to Vulcan ) therefore Hanzi speakers, read your heart out!

我太行二代问世：外媒称中国战机翅膀变硬

中国航空报报道：当配装国产发动机的重点型号飞机成功首飞，标志着中国一航“航空报国、自主创新”又一丰硕成果诞生。该型发动机通过了设计定型审查。配装该发动机的重点型号飞机顺利完成定型审查。一航沈阳所与一航动力所携手并肩、共谱蓝天理想，解决了一个个重大技术难题，攻克了一道道技术难关。


从以上官方语言我们可以读懂的是：国产WS-10发动机（即太行发动机）已装备歼-11B飞机，并于已完成定型审查。但至今没有WS-10装备国产歼-10的消息，而据《简氏防务周刊》报道，中国与俄罗斯签署了一项关于购买250台AL- 31FN发动机的合同，总价值9亿美元。这批发动机将用来装备歼-10战斗机，根据合同，首批100台发动机将于2005~2007年交付，第二批150 台将于2008~2010年交付（据介绍，AL-31FN发动机最大推力为125.5千牛，装有失量控制喷嘴和改良的控制系统）。


从上述两则消息我们可以得出这样一个判断：国产WS-10发动机已开始装备歼-11B飞机，而国产歼-10至今仍装备俄罗斯AL-31FN发动机。为什么会出现WS-10装备歼-11B，但歼-10却依然使用俄罗斯的AL-31FN的情况。这只能说明一个问题：即WS-10的可靠性依然低于 AL-31，歼-10是单发机，对此要求较高，所以只能选择可靠性更高的AL-31F；而歼-11B是双发机，对发动机的可靠性要求低于歼-10，所以可以装备WS-10。


太行二代


日前《中国航空报》刊载了一篇报道：《一航动力所重点型号研制工作成果斐然》。文中透露：“ 太行”发动机在批产过程中，解决了一系列技术问题，交付数量大大提高，基本上实现了从科研向批产的过渡，实现了技术成果向装备的转化。“太行”系列发展型完成了计划任务的方案设计、技术攻关和试验验证工作，为配装飞机打下坚实基础。这标志着太行二代的问世，曾有外媒对这一消息进行评价：Chinese taihang II 问世 战机翅膀变硬。


这篇官方报道向我们透露出了许多有价值的信息，澄清了此前的一些猜测和争论：一是“太行”发动机已经批产且交付数量大大提高，二是“太行”发动机存在的一系列技术问题已获解决，三是“太行”发动机已经走上系列化发展轨道且离配装飞机为期不远……。

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The flight test can not be discounted as a mere show of strength or pride. As I said before, it was planned for 2009, and continuously pushed back due to various reasons. It's been nearly three months since the interview as well...
There are no connections between the two events.

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My recollection is that India didn't sign up with the PAK FA program until the 2005 time frame of which time the offer was also proposed to Beijing therefore 5 years is pretty speedy de gonzalas to get something from a CAD drawing to infrastructure to tooling then to whatever else is involved to the flight test stages... I call that warp speed so congrats for a job well done...

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

I think we are all forgetting something here... many of the posters (including myself) bashed at the T-50 with these,

1) Not as stealthy as F22 or F35.
2) Not as capable a plane as F22
3) etc.

Well... the thing is - F22 is operational... she had been flying for sometime now.

The T-50 is a prototype who make their first flight. Of course many of the actual items are not in there... I even doubt that the engines are the final one that are going to be used. I bet that when T-50 is finally developed fully and completely for mass production, she would be a very much different plane.

The prototype might just be a concept or test for the concepts for many new technologies. So I think we will have to wait awhile more to see how development go and not coming into scene and criticise the aircraft for its lack of stealthiness ... or being not as capable as the F-22, and stuff like that.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

U.S. F-22 program insider (a LockMart engineer) opinion.

Credentials:

djcross said:

Skunk Works ... F-22 nose radome and X-35 flight certification

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Opinion:

djcross said:

Pak-FA is a very impressive airplane.

It has all the design attributes one would expect of Generation 5. The size and fuel fraction places it squarely in the OCA role.

I expect it to be expensive when compared to Gen 4, so the question becomes "How many can Russia afford to buy for the VVS?"

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djcross said:

edi_right_round said:

[...] Is this your personal opinion or your Usaf colleagues share the same thoughts ?

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Its unanimous. The guys who have viewed the pictures and youtube clip were all impressed. Many of us worked F-117, F-22 and F-35.

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djcross said:

Don't sell Russia short. They have an extremely mature capability.
[...]
Pak-FA = metal marble (once they take all the flight test instrumentation off and apply the RAM coatings). Yes, IMO, its that good in the forward sector.

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djcross said:

It depends on the integration of RAM and small details in the production configuration. Clearly, the first T-50 used some non-stealthy details from SU-30 (such as air data, total temperature, angle of attack, communications antennas, and inlet blow-in louvers) that I would expect to see removed entirely or replaced with stealthy details on the production airplane. Side sector RCS is always larger than front or rear sector, but side sector RCS will be many orders of magnitude less than SU-30. Patriot and MEADS detection ranges will be significantly reduced.

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djcross said:

I would expect the airplanes 1-3 to be dedicated to proving flying qualities and propulsion performance, so they wouldn't be coated. Airplanes 4+ should have all the RAM coatings, bells and whistles.

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Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

rhino123 said:

I think we are all forgetting something here... many of the posters (including myself)

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Nonesense, rhino! I mean why would anyone want to do a fool thing like that when there's perceivably no need for it?

As a matter of factly, I would be of the presumption that most everyone here is hoping that someone in this world have at long last finally broke the stealth monopoly that America have over everyone else and are hoping for the best from this first debut of the Su T-50.

I mean it's clear most of us Handi's Chini Chin Chins are no more but merely tryin' to get a handle on what kinds of an ESSO Tiger Russia puts in the tank of this Raptor just like everyone else in the world so why make a big deal about it?

You must understand, rhino, 5 years (Time starting from when New Dehli inked with Russia on this joint venture); then from CAD drawing to actually zippin' about in the air does strike awe in everyone to the point it's almost as fable-like as Alice in Wonderland.

Hell, for a time, I was stupid enough to fall for this get rich quick scheme by becoming an inventor; got sucked in by coming up with some stupid idea; paid patent lawyer some 4000 bucks US to have it patented; searched out some mold maker in Taiwan and have the mold made; finally a marketing agency to try and get it informercialized for me, but my luck of the Irish ran out -- the Keyless entry system made its mark on the automotive industry and down the drain goes my 5000 bucks of investment and -- almost 4 and a half years of hard work... Getting a hang of where I'm leading with this???

This is from the CMF site. I'm sure many here traverses that wilderness as well. Crob himself might be one to monitor/administer that site; the credit, it must be said here, goes to Cyber as it is taken from one of his postings, and, of a very very neutral none-Chinese source so please don't inject the XXJ whatever in here because that's not fair:


Sukhoi's Stealth Fighter May Be Quick Export to India
Posted by David A. Fulghum at 2/2/2010 9:12 AM CST

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U.S. intelligence officials are closely monitoring the testing of Sukhoi’s T-50 stealth fighter prototype. It’s first flight from Komsomolsk has packed Russian blogs with pictures and videos taken from the base’s fence line and transcripts of in-flight conversations between Russian aircrews.

Funding aid for the program is expected to come from India, say U.S. officials. India's air force is becoming sophisticated and has adopted an operational flexibility and tactical innovation similar to U.S. Air Force and Navy fighter units.

The flights have answered some questions, but raised even more new ones.

“It is apparent that more concern has been paid to shaping, but there are still many surface intersections and flight test probes that will stress [increase the radar] signature,” says a senior Air Force officer involved in development of the F-117 and F-35. “In addition, we need to understand the internal mechanics of very large inlets to determine how and if engine blockage [of radar reflections] is achieved. In addition, those wing leading edge devices present challenges for [stealth] signature control.”

“Engines are going to be one of the long poles in the tent here,” says one of the U.S. analysts. “ It is unclear if in fact the aircraft is flying with the interim [117S] supercruise engine or just the AL-31FP’s like those in the Su-30MKI/MKA/MKM for the initial flights. The [refined supercruise] engine likely won’t be ready for several years to come, well beyond even IOC [initial operating capability].”

U.S. expectations are that the aircraft will undergo several more flight safety tests at Komsomolsk before testing shifts to Ramenskoye Flight test Center nearer Moscow to begin the test and development program. Estimates from U.S. officials are that the move will come in 6-8 weeks.

Senior Russian leadership have said that the first jet will be delivered to Lipetsk in 2013 where all new aircraft and upgrades to existing aircraft are thoroughly tested.

“Lipetsk will function as a sort of Nellis, sort of Edwards, sort of Eglin to wring out the jet, develop some basic combat employment doctrine and methodology, and write the flight manuals and weapons employment manuals,” the U.S. analyst says. “ Finally, they’ll train the initial IP [instructor pilot] cadre for the first line unit that will receive the jet -- probably 18-24 months after the first one arrives at Lipetsk. Whether they are able to meet the 2013 timeline is debatable, and depends on the success of the testing to come in the near term, the financial commitment the Russian government – and India’s government for that matter -- puts behind it, and, last but not least, whether there are any accidents."

For one perspective from India, see Bill Sweetman's post from Singapore yesterday, India Boost For T-50.

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Mark my words: Bull craps like this

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will exert even greater pressure upon Tu-T-50 to deliver:


The following I'll leave as is as a means of avoiding a flame war because of the sensitive nature of it therefore for the Hanzi reader to digest only:

据法新社2月2日报道，印度国防部长本周二宣布一再推迟的印度国产战斗机项目(***)已经成功。据
称 *** 将在2020年服役，成为印度的前线战斗机。

印度国防部长在印度南部城市班加罗尔安东尼向媒体宣布，*** ——号称世界上最小的战斗机——将在2010
年前将会放开有限的飞行。“今天我可以在此宣布 *** 项目终于将梦想成真，”安东尼说。*** 从1983年开
始就在班加罗尔研发，已经耗费了数十亿美元。

安东尼还透露，*** 使用的美国通用电气公司的发动机将在2012年前交付。

安东尼针对*** 永远都飞不起来的指责回应说，所有的质疑都被证明是错误的，印度空军已经订购第一批
20架 ***。

虽然***的首架原型机已经在1995年出厂，但三年后随着西方对印度核试验的制裁，*** 项目的进展嘎然
而止，由于时间表不断推迟，*** 赢得了“最后一次机会战机(last chance aircraft)”的别名。

此前印度对研制国产战机的尝试是在1950年代，但由于远远达不到作战要求，在制造了一小批后宣告失
败。

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