The World's 4th, 4.5 & 5th Generation Fighters

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

pla101prc said:

so if it does have to range how is it guided anyways? i mean you can barely detect the target that far away let alone hitting it.

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cough cough <checks wikipedia>

Inertial navigation to the target before it's active seeker head turns on for homing in and going kaboom. Makes sense in a way. Friendly AWACs or ground radar may detect the enemy AWAC and send the co ordinates or something? I'm a tad out of my league here >_>

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

Firstly congrats to the Russian for dishing out such a superb platform, for the first time in Russian federation it isn't just an refinement of a Soviet product, but the achievement of a new nation.

Now onto analyzing the platform itself. It indeed looks stealthy, but looks don't determine the bigger picture. Yes, it looks to be heavily RCS reduced, but so does the F-15SE in a manner. The major drawback is the tail area where the tail for the rear receiver sticks out and so to the engine in the lack in heat signature reduction of the engine placing, its engine stretches out. Lastly if you view the underbelly of the fighter it isn't flush clean, its not flat, you can clearly distinguish the air inlet and the actual body. Compared to the underbelly of F-22, you can't distinguish the difference.

@ twodollars

No need for rude hostile trolling comments like that. If it was a Chinese propaganda supporting forum then they would've written not in English. Its international, with many posters not being Chinese themselves but are interest in aviation and naval technology in general.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

I'm quite happy to see the Pak Fa flying, its quite a big achievement for the Russians

But like some others have said it doesnt look as stealthy as expected, In particular the Engines are not as blended as on the f-22 and f-35, the exhausts in particular do not look stealthy. Also the body is not blended into the wing. Couldnt they have designed it to look more like all the fan art

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

I'm curious as to how Carlo Kopp over at Australian Air Power site is going to spin this. LoL.

Guys, trolls work in this way: it takes 2 to tangle. If someone is trying to rub you the wrong way, ignore them. Winning an argument on the Internet isn't winning when the other guy spends 30 seconds to type a remark to provoke you, and then you spend the next 30 mins typing a response.

If you don't understand, see this:


Also, let's face it, most of us here are just armchair generals. If you're truly knowledgeable about certain weapon systems in detail, you probably work in the defense industry and not supposed to reveal any classified information anyway. As I said to someone in the past here, we'd love to get more confidential information, but if you get caught, we won't know which correctional facility to send a cake to.

Anyways, back on topic.

The "PAK-FA" that we've seen is just the test platform. Look at the development history of the Su-27, from the T-10-1 prototype to the T-10S series prototypes, and the modifications to the T-10V (Su-34). I think we should expect to see may changes with the T-50.

The total development cost of the PAK-FA is estimated at $8-$10 billion, and both Russia and India is said to be committed to buying 250 aircraft each (200 single seat & 50 dual seat) for an estimated initial total production of 500. The unit cost per aircraft is estimated at ~$100 million USD. Considering the military budget and economies of both countries, I think this is a fairly realistic expectation.

Sine this is just the prototype, we can't really do a realistic comparison with the production model F-35's. Why F-35 and not F-22? Because we should be comparing the export market and not waving our electronic manhoods on who's bigger. The F-35 has the initial advantage and is ready for production, while the PAK-FA is not. But the PAK-FA design team can look at the F-35 as the target to surpass, and offer customers freedom from US-imposed restrictions. As we all know the US is very prudent in military hardware exports and imposes many restrictions on the munitions, spares, and use of its exported systems. If a country is looking to have an independent foreign policy backed by arms (India), then the PAK-FA will serve that purpose well.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

Let me add some few notes, I was reading that the Russians would make a naval version of the Fifth Generation Plane. Is it this one or another plane ? This is really going to be a great year.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

Anyhow, going back on topic, I wonder why jet fighter designers don't put more infrared sensors (IRST) on their aircraft. Put one facing forward on the vertical stabilizer or on one or both ends of the wings. Put one facing backward on the vertical stabilizer or on one or both ends of the wings. Put one facing to the sides on the end of one or both ends of the wings. Put one facing upward and downward, respectively, on the upper fuselage and lower fuselage. It would be like super enhanced MAWs or IRST system. You have two infrared sensors to look forward (triangulation), two to look backward (helps against rear, surprise attacks), one for each side, and one for each vertical direction. If this 8-eye configuration adds too much cost, weight, radar reflections, and aerodynamic penalty, then have one 8-eyed jet fighter fly as a scout for a group of jet fighters. If needed, the 8-eyed jet fighter can hold ECM pods and function like an advanced Prowler or Growler.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

mods note>>. Gents I edited out twodollarss remarks from many of your post so as not to give any ideas to any members.

As Infra_Man99 stated;

Anyhow, going back on topic,

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bd popeye super moderator and Grand Pubah

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

Bltizo said:

@ Vlad Plasmius, Why do you think the J-20 will be more superior in stealth? (I ask out of interest, because I think that despite all of Russia's problems, they are probably superior in stealth technology relative to China... The J-20 will probably have round engine nozzles as well (and it seems to me T-50 will not be getting stealthy nozzles like the F-22). I wonder if they will make more serrations for the production T-50.

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Like I said that is unless they make serious modifications. I do not see China test flying anything that looks like the T-50 in terms of quality. Perhaps it is like adeptitus said and this will significant revisions. As it stands the T-50 does not have a very stealthy design compared to F-22 or F-35.

This has some obvious advantages in stealth but yet it also has major stealth deficiencies in comparison to the Su-47. If it ends up looking more like the Su-47 in certain areas.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

Vlad Plasmius said:

Like I said that is unless they make serious modifications. I do not see China test flying anything that looks like the T-50 in terms of quality. Perhaps it is like adeptitus said and this will significant revisions. As it stands the T-50 does not have a very stealthy design compared to F-22 or F-35.

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Yah I agree, the T-50 will undergo numerous revisions, but I think it's relatively stealthy for a prototype, not as much as the F-22 but probably better than the F-35. The F-35 at the moment has those huge round bulges under it's belly which aren't good for stealth from what I've read (though this may be only from its critics... either way the T-50 is stealthy enough imho to be equal at least to the F-35 in stealthiness)

What do you mean by "I do not see China test flying anything that looks like the T-50 in terms of quality", do you mean that the J-XX will not reach T-50 quality or stay under T-50 quality? (I'm not sure how much stealth experience China has compared to Russia, so right now I think it can go either way but may lean a tad towards Russia because of its aircraft manufacturing experience, and the Su-47, Mig 1.44 tech demonstrators...)

The pessemestic side of me says that the J-XX may have several deficiencies due to "technical difficulties" and bad design or whatever (such as no edge alignment, lack of serrations, too many outer bumps, no RAM, or at worst - no internal weapon bay ) But this is because we've heard no real reports on Chinese development of stealth... sigh

This has some obvious advantages in stealth but yet it also has major stealth deficiencies in comparison to the Su-47. If it ends up looking more like the Su-47 in certain areas.

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Err, are you implying the Su-47 is more stealthy than the T-50? If so then I have to politely disagree. Just look at the pictures of the two - the T-50 has edge alignment, V tails, less surface bumps, internal weapon bays, S inlets (RAM eventually, if not already)... I'd think the edge alignment alone would mean it's way more stealthy than the Su-47 which as far as I know may only have had RAM.

(I hope I'm not being too rude with my reply btw, my phrasing is in a dire need of looking over but sometimes I can't be bothered )

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

It does not matter how it "looks" to a human eye - what matters is the RCS and how the radar sees it.

It's an unpainted prototype with many things still to perfect. A serial production run, when coated with RAM and fully painted, me thinks, would look no less impressive than an F-22 or F-35.