The World's 4th, 4.5 & 5th Generation Fighters

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

Bltizo said:

What do you mean by "I do not see China test flying anything that looks like the T-50 in terms of quality", do you mean that the J-XX will not reach T-50 quality or stay under T-50 quality?

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I am saying I think China would test an aircraft of higher quality. They would not dare put out something and call it fifth generation unless it looks close to other fifth generation fighters meaning F-22 and F-35.

Err, are you implying the Su-47 is more stealthy than the T-50? If so then I have to politely disagree. Just look at the pictures of the two - the T-50 has edge alignment, V tails, less surface bumps, internal weapon bays, S inlets (RAM eventually, if not already)... I'd think the edge alignment alone would mean it's way more stealthy than the Su-47 which as far as I know may only have had RAM.

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You should look at a picture of the Su-47 and then look at some of the images of T-50.



As I already said the T-50 has some advantages, but the SU-47 has advantages in other areas of stealth. The Su-47 is closer to a blended wing design. Also the engines are not hanging out so to speak. I just don't understand why they didn't seem to use the Su-47 as the baseline. If they did then it would be much stealthier.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

Vlad Plasmius said:

As I already said the T-50 has some advantages, but the SU-47 has advantages in other areas of stealth. The Su-47 is closer to a blended wing design. Also the engines are not hanging out so to speak. I just don't understand why they didn't seem to use the Su-47 as the baseline. If they did then it would be much stealthier.

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Oh I see what you mean now.
I think they didn't use the Su-47 as a baseline cause they wanted a whole new plane with new features (internal weapon bays) and different performance to the Su-47 which just required a whole new design. It'd be like building the J-XX out of the J-10 so to speak.
also imho the stealth that is achieved by blended wing design of the Su-47 pales in comparison to the T-50's.

But nice to have clarified that.

Expert's take on [ 俄 T-五十 ] 四代机（俄五代）

Expert's take on [ 俄 T-五十 ] 四代机（俄五代）

放眼世界 四代机下一家恐怕只有中国会搞出来了！

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2010-2-1 15:09

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　　美帝第一家已有了，就不说了。另外两家：俄罗斯心有余力不足，这个“力”主要是钱，因为无钱技术吃老本，没有新的开发出来；欧洲是力有余而心不齐，英法德瑞加起来，技术储备、钱都没有太大悬念，但是商贾出身的老欧洲各有小九九，有想搭美帝便车的，可以节省银子，毕竟金融危机能省一点是一点。

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Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

pla101prc said:

so if it does have to range how is it guided anyways? i mean you can barely detect the target that far away let alone hitting it.

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If you try to produce a long range AWACS killer, passive radar homing should do the job. If an AEW plane pumps out enough energy to detect fighters 200+km away, an ELINT aircraft can pick up that radiation at around 500km I guess. Give the anti radar missile a rough target location, let it fly there and that look on it's on.

Infra_Man99 said:

Anyhow, going back on topic, I wonder why jet fighter designers don't put more infrared sensors (IRST) on their aircraft.

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Well, the F-35 has six IR sensers, in addition to the dedicated targeting system, for spherical coverege to perform missile warning, A/C apprroach warning, navigation / SA tasks.

All that's probably really expensive to built and maintain, but it's a great tool and I think it'll appear on more airplanes as time goes on.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

I personally think it's exterior design, the radar reflection is still very high.
And it's stealth coating, in doubt.
F-22 claims that its only 2%,of caurse it much more than that rate, how much Pak-Fa claims for? 10%?

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

As I already said the T-50 has some advantages, but the SU-47 has advantages in other areas of stealth. The Su-47 is closer to a blended wing design. Also the engines are not hanging out so to speak. I just don't understand why they didn't seem to use the Su-47 as the baseline. If they did then it would be much stealthier.

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The Su-47 frame is prone with trouble - inadequate carrying capacity, for one, and reversed-wing, of course.

The intakes hanging out is irrelevant so as long as there is a sufficiently adequate shaped duct (S-shaped or otherwise, see B-1B engine RCS-reducing measures for explanation) that covers the fan blades.

The larger engines on the PAK FA are an utter necessity for a craft that heavy, which also aims to be faster and more endurant than any of the five generation currently in service.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

Vlad Plasmius said:

Like I said that is unless they make serious modifications. I do not see China test flying anything that looks like the T-50 in terms of quality. Perhaps it is like adeptitus said and this will significant revisions. As it stands the T-50 does not have a very stealthy design compared to F-22 or F-35.

This has some obvious advantages in stealth but yet it also has major stealth deficiencies in comparison to the Su-47. If it ends up looking more like the Su-47 in certain areas.

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I still insist that this is a preemptive strike on China's recent CCTV interview concerning China's 4th Generation fighter where this Chinese Air Force General boasted will soon make its debut with detail accounts of the time frame it'll take for the plane to be inducted into service with the PLAAF. I mean nothing is this coincidental.

I also speculate that This Ruski-Indi project is not truly and fully ready for this stage of development just yet because the powerplant in itself can't be left exposed as it is if it is boasted a stealth project. Thus, on the real deal, I suspect the engines and its exhaust to be fully covered up.

This test is simply to test it aerodynamics and an attempt at signing in as the second country(ies) in the world to field a stealth fighter, and yes, likely on heavy insistence from Delhi who likely is the project's major financier and banker....

My 2 cent only of course...

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

Harley-One said:

I still insist that this is a preemptive strike on China's recent CCTV interview concerning China's 4th Generation fighter where this Chinese Air Force General boasted will soon make its debut with detail accounts of the time frame it'll take for the plane to be inducted into service with the PLAAF. I mean nothing is this coincidental.

I also speculate that This Ruski-Indi project is not truly and fully ready for this stage of development just yet because the powerplant in itself can't be left exposed as it is if it is boasted a stealth project. Thus, on the real deal, I suspect the engines and its exhaust to be fully covered up.

This test is simply to test it aerodynamics and an attempt at signing in as the second country(ies) in the world to field a stealth fighter, and yes, likely on heavy insistence from Delhi who likely is the project's major financier and banker....

My 2 cent only of course...

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I doubt the flight has much to do with the CCTV interview - the scheduale for a 2009 flight was made way before the CCTV interview, and the "detailed accounts" of the time frame were basically "it will fly very soon". The T-50 flight obviously was pushed back due to a number of reasons, but I think you're seeing connections which aren't there.
The Russians and Indians (don't call them ruski, indi - it's like calling Chinese people "chinky", which is a tad insulting) aren't so immature that they would rush forward a plane's first flight because of an announcement from a tv show (though I am not questioning the interview's credibility).
And of course it's not fully ready - this was stated clearly in a number of news reports - but take into account that all the artist depictions which are similar to the T-50 show rounded engine exhausts as well not unsimilar to it's present form. Besides, the J-XX is expected to not be in its full configuration when it makes the first flight (no WS-15, for one) so the T-50 is not such an exception.
The flight test can not be discounted as a mere show of strength or pride. As I said before, it was planned for 2009, and continuously pushed back due to various reasons. It's been nearly three months since the interview as well...
There are no connections between the two events.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

Scratch said:

If you try to produce a long range AWACS killer, passive radar homing should do the job. If an AEW plane pumps out enough energy to detect fighters 200+km away, an ELINT aircraft can pick up that radiation at around 500km I guess. Give the anti radar missile a rough target location, let it fly there and that look on it's on.

Well, the F-35 has six IR sensers, in addition to the dedicated targeting system, for spherical coverege to perform missile warning, A/C apprroach warning, navigation / SA tasks.

All that's probably really expensive to built and maintain, but it's a great tool and I think it'll appear on more airplanes as time goes on.

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Yeah, I read documents and videos of the F-35's all-around infrared sensors and helmet vision. The F-35 has infrared sensors around the jet's body so the F-35 has 360 degree vision for infrared sources. The infrared information is sent to the pilot's helmet mask/screen, so the pilot sees infrared sources all around him. I have been aware of this.

What I don't know is why infrared has been around for so long, yet, taking full advantage of the technology is so slow. Airplane makers could produce these complete-coverage infrared-sensors upgrades for current jets and install them on future jets, but only the F-35 is trying to standardize all-around infrared sensors.

Look at the PAK-FA. It has an infrared bulb facing forward. The bulb does not have a stealthy shape. I thought Russia would have integrated infrared sensors into the body of the PAK-FA to give all-around infrared vision combined with maximum stealth. Maybe the PAK-FA is a very early design and will experience lots of stealth enhancements, sensor refinements, and other improvements.

Like I previously said, I think cost is the main reason for the limited amount of infrared technology on jet fighters and other weapons systems, but I am not an industry expert.

Re: Russian fifth generation fighter

A round shape for an IRST is better for the sensor itself. The F-35's attempts to make an angle-shaped IRST sensor pod resulted in poor performance as reports indicate.

So perhaps Russia is looking for some other shapes that could possibly solve both the requirement of stealth and the requirement of performance, and meanwhile just placed an ordinary pod on the prototype.