The War in the Ukraine

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
There are many consequences of a Russian attack at Ukrainian nuclear infrastructure that will bear negative cost for Russia but I don't have the time to explain it here at length. I'll mention just the most obvious and pertinent: per adopted NATO policy any disruption to nuclear safety in Ukraine caused by Russian military activity triggers article 5. All that is required is either for Poland and Romania to file the motion which I assure you will be automatic from our side.

The basic response that has been agreed is to "ensure that Russian attacks against Ukrainian nuclear sites do not constitute a radiation threat to NATO states".

Because apart from Enerhodar all other facilities are only vulnerable to air and missile strikes the measures undertaken will establish a de jure NATO-enforced no-fly zone over nuclear sites in Ukraine, which will effectively translate into a de-facto no-fly zone over all of Ukraine. It will be achieved through the following measures:
  1. destruction of Russian air defenses within the territory of Republic of Ukraine, including Crimea
  2. destruction of Russian air bases within the territory of Republic of Ukraine, including Crimea
  3. destruction of Russian Black Sea fleet at sea and within the territory of Republic of Ukraine, including Crimea
  4. destruction of any air defense assets defending against above actions regardless of their location
This would still be fairly limited response considering that Pentagon has communicated through reliable channels (you know which ones if you are a person in the know, and not an attention-starved idiot making noise online) that the reaction to Russia's use of tactical nuclear weapon in Ukraine would be the destruction of Black Sea Fleet. Black Sea Fleet includes vessels currently in the Mediterranean. This is why the choice of phrasing was particular. This is the response to threats of nuclear weapon being used against a state that is not a member of the alliance. Tactical nuclear weapons have low risk of fallout that would affect NATO states unless they are used against targets near NATO territory.

What's more important: points 1-4 will effectively ensure persistent NATO presence in the air over Russian forces for a period of at least 1-2 weeks which will effectively have a similar effect to NATO providing air support to Ukrainian forces on the ground during the time, even though the targets will be limited.

As such it is most likely that any offensive operation undertaken by Ukrainian forces at such time will not meet any meaningful resistance which will end with a total rout of Russian forces from Ukraine since two weeks is all that is necessary to clear the southern region of the front between Zaporozhia and Donetsk which will then result in the collapse of defenses on the right side of Dnepr, a disorganized rout into and out of Crimea.

Furthermore point 4 effectively makes it possible to attack Russian facilities in Syria simply by using the excuse that they constitute threat to USAF bombers from Diego Garcia and USAF will ensure it by flying bombers as close to Latakia as possible. It won't happen to demonstrate that it is "all about nuclear safety in Ukraine".

Russian air and naval capabilities were never a match for NATO even before the war. The problem was always ground forces and nuclear weapons. After eight months of war attrition and with the intelligence that NATO has gathered in that time it will be a repetition of Desert Storm that will cost Russia almost all of its naval and air assets in Southern Military District.

There is a thin line established through numerous crises in the past that both sides stay clear of which ensures that the war in Ukraine remains a proxy conflict convenient to both sides. If Russia crosses that line it will bear the consequences. All you need to remember is the Iranian missile strike on US forces in Iraq following the assassination of Soleimani. Those are the rules of the game that need to be followed if the game is to continue. New game, new rules and a lot of unpredictability and chaos.

Putin is a psychopathic narcissist but he is not an idiot. There is no miscalculation possible because NATO communicated its position clearly numerous times. He also knows the consequences if he gave the order to use nuclear weapons as a deterrent which will be the last order given by him as the President of Russia. Other than that Russia has nothing to counter points 1-4 and the immediate fallout. He also knows that there are many people in the Pentagon that secretly dream of the opportunity. And the fact that he will be seen as responsible for it, while the natural response (nuclear) will not be available will result in collapse of his regime, to be replaced by a de facto military dictatorship. Again this is down to GRU vs FSB dynamic within the Russian state security apparatus.

So unless someone is actively sabotaging Putin from within there will be no strikes that affect nuclear sites.

One more thing - the incidents at Enerhodar were likely caused by both sides as means of testing responses. It had nothing to do with whatever it was the media or "independent analysts" online were claiming. It was always about exploring and reinforcing the rules of engagement.
It is rubbish because NATO does not afford such a response.

Putin has made it clear that a direct attack from NATO means Russia will consider an apocalyptic nuclear strike. But of course, Putin is not allowed to use such a weapon. Instead, it is a bargaining chip that if Russia is attacked, Russia will recieve conventional weapons more capable of defending from NATO than their nuclear ones.

What will happen if NATO goes in fully is that first they will achieve battlefield success against Russia. But there will be no air superiority because Russia has a massive AAM stockpile, even greater than Ukraine, and almost all RU AF was held in reserve for this.

Nothing fast will happen with no air superiority and intact command and control, the Russians thought the Ukrainians would fold like in desert storm as well and now some incredibly overconfident NATO leaders think Russia will fold the same way.

Neither Russia nor Ukraine are Iraq, both have functioning, non infiltrated commands, and enough persistent AAM to deny bombing runs except from cruise missiles.

Next, Russia will mobilize with a general draft. NATO will be stuck in and there will now be a direct stream of advanced weapons from China to Moscow, along with vastly extended ranges of Iranian equipment.

Maybe NATO will bring several CVBGs to attack the Black Sea fleet. They could lose some ships in the opening salvo. Then, in weeks, due to Putin's nuclear blackmail, new types of "Geran" arrive that can strike carriers in the Mediterranean while based in the caucasus. If one of these capsize even 1 US carrier, its a gigantic humiliation. Huge risk for America.

The lesson NATO has so far been smart enough to follow is, don't play all your cards when the other side barely played anything.

NATO will not respond to Russians collapsing the whole UKR energy grid unless Russians start bombing nuclear plants with the explicit intention of causing fallout to drift into West Europe, which is a giant and unnecessary escalation.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
So irradiate the entire world because of a slight possibility of a radiation incident in Ukraine, very clever.
At the same time, there is a line somewhere for NATO to respond forcefully. People in real life do not behave rationally, we've came much closer to full nuclear exchange numerous times before. However, I don't believe the threshold would be as low as "Attack nuclear facility", more along "Cause another Chernobyl", which will be very hard for newer reactor designs.
 

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
This has relatively short range, so if you shoot down a suicide drone over a city, it's going to crash into civilians
Between multiple buk missiles destroying buildings or the drone falling and exploding... just joking.

We have heard C-Ram used in Odessa against the first strikes, don't know if they hit something but fitting these gun in Urban environments is not an easy task. In an open field they are able to get a clear fire line but between buildings,power lines, radio antennas... they would have quite a difficult time. So you need a large number of them and placing them arround city or target perimeter... for the number of target in Ukraine, forget it. You can protect some maybe but it's an impossible task.
 

Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
Registered Member
Ukrainian air defense active, according to the author, with high interception rates

This trajectory of the Geran-2 looks like a flank attack and not a frontal attack as it is supposed and seems to have the Crimean territory as its origin.

Photo of some Russian units in Kherson

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Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
Ukrainian air defense active, according to the author, with high interception rates

This trajectory of the Geran-2 looks like a flank attack and not a frontal attack as it is supposed and seems to have the Crimean territory as its origin.

Photo of some Russian units in Kherson

View attachment 99874
Battle is probably far from over. However again another AFU attack repulsed, casualty numbers not easy to find reliable examples of, but NCOs and veterans don't grow on trees. Especially not when you don't have an energy grid.
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
Russia not targeting Ukrainian NPPs after the Ukros have repeatedly shelled theirs is another sign of weakness from the Russians.

It doesn't even need to a catastrophic attack, a single Shahed drone and the message will be clear enough. Afterwards you can blame the Ukrainians for attacking their own plants, just like they have been.

The NATO response is irrelevant, Russia needs to stop acting like it matters. Is Russia a nuclear power or not? Russia has already outlined what the outcome would be if NATO gets involved in the Ukrainian conflict. Whether NATO decides to do so is on them, not Russia.

One possibility is that Russia is waiting for winter to come before an all out strike on Ukraine's power infrastructure. Doing it too soon would be less effective as accommodations could be made in time for winter.
 

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
Battle is probably far from over. However again another AFU attack repulsed, casualty numbers not easy to find reliable examples of, but NCOs and veterans don't grow on trees. Especially not when you don't have an energy grid.
There are some pretty bloody images floating around in pro-Russian telegram channels that show the aftermath. A T-72 with its turret thrown clean of the hull and a body around it. Bodies all around a mud road. Bodies in a freshly dug dirt grave with incorrect head to leg ratio. This is the only one I could find without a dead body:
photo_2022-10-20_19-15-47.jpg
 

Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
Registered Member

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
Russia not targeting Ukrainian NPPs after the Ukros have repeatedly shelled theirs is another sign of weakness from the Russians.

It doesn't even need to a catastrophic attack, a single Shahed drone and the message will be clear enough. Afterwards you can blame the Ukrainians for attacking their own plants, just like they have been.

The NATO response is irrelevant, Russia needs to stop acting like it matters. Is Russia a nuclear power or not? Russia has already outlined what the outcome would be if NATO gets involved in the Ukrainian conflict. Whether NATO decides to do so is on them, not Russia.

One possibility is that Russia is waiting for winter to come before an all out strike on Ukraine's power infrastructure. Doing it too soon would be less effective as accommodations could be made in time for winter.
Russia is a lot less desparate for progress...

Directly striking NPPs is a poor idea anyways. Since Russia intends to live close to there and have a client state there later.

Attack on substations will probably come once Russia's offensive comes. Bad tactics to do it early and let the enemy adjust.
 
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