The War in the Ukraine

sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
Comment by Scott Ritter on Telegram, I quote:

I have been asked to comment on the situation in eastern-southern Ukraine following the commencement of a major counteroffensive by the Ukrainian armed forces (UAF). Given the fluidity of the situation on the ground, I will avoid trying to conduct a detailed analysis of the specific actions that have taken place, are taking place, and will take place. I am thousands of miles removed from the battlefield and am in receipt of incomplete and often contradictory pieces of information. Any effort to try and paint a complete picture of this battlefield would be, in my case at least, a fool’s errand.

I will start with first principles. War is a complicated business. Any effort that overlooks this reality when promulgating “solutions” to problems on the battlefield is self-nullifying.

Both the Ukrainian and Russian militaries are large, professional organizations backed by institutions designed to produce qualified warriors. Both militaries are well led, well equipped, and well prepared to undertake the missions assigned them. They are among the largest military organizations in Europe.

The Russian military is staffed by officers of the highest caliber, who have undergone extensive training in the military arts. They are experts in strategy, operations, and tactics. They know their business.

The Ukrainian military has undergone a radical transformation in the years since 2014, where Soviet-era doctrine has been replaced by a hybrid doctrine which incorporates NATO doctrine and methodologies. This transformation has been accelerated dramatically since the outset of the Special Military Operation, with the Ukrainian military virtually transitioning from older Soviet-era heavy equipment to an arsenal which more closely mirrors the table of organization and equipment of the NATO nations which are providing billions of dollars of equipment and training.

The Ukrainians are, like their Russian counterparts, military professional’s adept at the necessity of adapting to battlefield realities. The Ukrainian experience, however, is complicated by the complexity associated by trying to meld two disparate doctrinal approaches to war (Soviet-era and modern NATO) under combat conditions. This complexity creates opportunities for mistakes, and mistakes on the battlefield often result in casualties—significant casualties.

Russia has fought three different style wars in the six months that the Special Military Operation has been underway. The first was a war of maneuver, designed to seize as much territory as possible to shape the battlefield militarily and politically. The Special Military Operation was conducted with approximately 200,000 Russian and allied forces, who were up against an active-duty Ukrainian military of some 260,000 troops backed by up to 600,000 reservists. The standard 3:1 attacker-defender ratio did not apply—the Russians sought to use speed, surprise, and audacity to minimize Ukraine’s numerical advantage, and in the process hoping for a rapid political collapse in Ukraine that would prevent any major fighting between the Russian and Ukrainian armed forces.

This plan succeeded in some areas (in the south, for instance), and did fix Ukrainian troops in place and cause the diversion of reinforcements away from critical zones of operation. But it failed strategically—the Ukrainians did not collapse, but rather solidified, ensuring a long, hard fight ahead.

The second phase of the Russian operation had the Russians regroup to focus on the conquest/liberation of the Donbas region. Here, Russia adapted its operational methodology, using its superiority in firepower to conduct a slow, deliberate advance against Ukrainian forces dug into extensive defensive networks and, in doing so, achieving unheard of casualty ratios that had ten or more Ukrainians being killed or wounded for every Russian casualty.

While Russia was slowly advancing against dug in Ukrainian forces, the US and NATO provided Ukraine with billions of dollars of military equipment, including the equivalent of several armored divisions of heavy equipment (tanks, armored fighting vehicles, artillery, and support vehicles), along with extensive operational training on this equipment at military installations outside Ukraine. In short, while Russia was busy destroying the Ukrainian military on the battlefield, Ukraine was busy reconstituting that army, replacing destroyed units with fresh forces that were extremely well equipped, well trained, and well led.

The second phase of the conflict saw Russia destroy the old Ukrainian army. In its stead, Russia faced mobilized territorial and national units, supported by reconstituted NATO-trained forces. But the bulk of the NATO trained forces were held in reserve.

These are the forces that have been committed in the current phase of fighting—a new third phase. Russia finds itself in a full-fledged proxy war with NATO, facing a NATO-style military force that is being logistically sustained by NATO, trained by NATO, provided with NATO intelligence, and working in harmony with NATO military planners.

What this means is that the current Ukrainian counteroffensive should not be viewed as an extension of the phase two battle, but rather the initiation of a new third phase which is not a Ukrainian-Russian conflict, but a NATO-Russian conflict.

The Ukrainian battleplan has “Made in Brussels” stamped all over it. The force composition was determined by NATO, as was the timing of the attacks and the direction of the attacks. NATO intelligence carefully located seams in the Russian defenses, and identified critical command and control, logistics, and reserve concentration nodes that were targeted by Ukrainian artillery which operates on a fire control plan created by NATO.

The tactics used by Ukraine appear to be completely new. Probing attacks are launched to force the Russians to reveal their defensive fires, which are then suppressed by Ukrainian counterbattery fires directed by drones and/or counterbattery radars. Then highly mobile Ukrainian forces rapidly advance through identified seams in the Russian defense, driving deep into largely unprotected territory. These main columns are supported by raids carried out by vehicle mounted troops which strike Russian rear area positions, further disrupting any Russian response.

In short, the Ukrainian army that Russia is facing in Kherson and around Kharkov is unlike any Ukrainian opponent it has previously faced. Advantage, Ukraine.

Russia, however, is a capable military opponent. The potential for a Ukrainian counteroffensive has been known for some time. To think that Russia has been taken completely unawares is to be dismissive of the professionalism of the Russian armed forces.
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That's one interesting analysis and makes sense. In that regard then Russia should adapt to this new phase of the war and accept it is not a "brotherly war", at least not anymore, and make use of its strategic depth and capabilities.

Not decimating Ukranian infraestructure in the hopes of a quick negotiation with minimal reconstruction and leaving the bulk of the fighting to the LPR/DPR and PMC's has come to bite them back in the ass.

At this point, this is the type of conflict were "shock and awe" might actually be useful and necesary, not "hearts and minds". You are going to get accused of all sorts of things anyway, so might as well go all out.
 

duskseeker

Junior Member
Registered Member
Now that we got all the incompetence and arrogance out of the way. What do you suppose Russian plans are for NATO proxy war in Ukraine? Will they still handicap themselves?
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
You can have a million soldiers, if your ROI are poor you still will find the same problems.

Ukrainians massacre civilians who collaborated with Russians. Russians gives Ukrainian collaborators Russian passports.
Ukrainians bomb Russian controlled towns daily including with mines to maximise civilian death. Russia does nothing but complain.
Ukrainians bomb nuclear plants repeatedly, again Russia does nothing but complain.
Ukrainians effectively use chemical weapons by bombing chemical weapons plants near civilian areas.
Ukrainians torture and execute Russian POWs, Russia for the most part treats Ukrainian POWs like their own children.

I don't blame Ukraine for doing so, they want to win and are prepared to do anything possible.

How does having more enlisted soldiers change any of the above? Russia needs to change their strategy. They aren't here to liberate Ukrainians, any more than the war against Germany was to liberate Germans.

This isn't an insurgency against your own people where you need to be more moral. You win by killing the enemy. Both America and the USSR did what was needed to win against the Nazis. They didn't fret whether it was acceptable to firebomb a city full of civilians or kill a group of captured SS soldiers. It needed to be done, so it was done.

There's literally no incentive not to. The west is already accusing Russians of being war criminals, may as well give something real for them to complain about and solve the Ukrainian problem at the same time.

Note all of the above sounds like political interference, i.e. Putin. I can't imagine Russian generals being so soft handed when it comes to Ukrainians.

When (or if) the war is won, ask the Israelis how to deal with a hostile population. You don't give them all Russian passports, you give them ID cards and monitor and control them.
In order to achieve that you still need more soldiers.

I suspect that Russian soft handedness is not a choice but rather forced. When you don't have much troops, it's bad to piss off the locals.

The solution to these problems is mobilization. Also, the Russian government should wake up to the fact that they no longer have a soviet standard military. What they have lacks full spectrum capabilities, it is more akin to the UK or French military which works best in a supporting role. It is time to acquire new capabilities by buying/taking lend lease from China.

When Russia acquired a western style oligarchy after Gorbachev, they were doomed towards having the same military and social deficiencies as the countries they modeled themselves on. It is time to wake up from the decade long daydream that Russia can sustain a world class military without foreign tech.
 

sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
Russia has similar budget as Britain & France but far larger military and is developing multiple different ICBM's among other things. Russia is a middle power what behaves like it's a superpower despite not having money to back it up... experts in small circles have said this before but now everyone sees it.

They do have the money. What they don't have is the political will to invest in that new tech.

Case in point T-72B2 Rogatka vis a vis T-72B3M or Su-24M2 versus Su-24M Gefest.
 
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Broccoli

Senior Member
That's one interesting analysis and makes sense. In that regard then Russia should adapt to this new phase of the war and accept it is not a "brotherly war", at least not anymore, and make use of its strategic depth and capabilities.

Not decimating Ukranian infraestructure in the hopes of a quick negotiation with minimal reconstruction and leaving the bulk of the fighting to the LPR/DPR and PMC's has come to bite them back in the ass.

At this point, this is the type of conflict were "shock and awe" might actually be useful and necesary, not "hearts and minds". You are going to get accused of all sorts of things anyway, so might as well go all out.

Russians can't do that anymore. Time to do that was when they first invaded and west hadn't yet send artillery & high-end gear, but now after suffering big casulaties especially on AFV forces, it's too late for any kinda "shock and awe" from Russian side.

Lend-lease will soon take effect and America to Ukraine weapon delieveries become more direct instead of slower dripping what we've seen so far. That means unlimited supplies of artillery shells, etc.
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
In order to achieve that you still need more soldiers.

I suspect that Russian soft handedness is not a choice but rather forced. When you don't have much troops, it's bad to piss off the locals.

The solution to these problems is mobilization. Also, the Russian government should wake up to the fact that they no longer have a soviet standard military. What they have lacks full spectrum capabilities, it is more akin to the UK or French military which works best in a supporting role. It is time to acquire new capabilities by buying/taking lend lease from China.

When Russia acquired a western style oligarchy after Gorbachev, they were doomed towards having the same military and social deficiencies as the countries they modeled themselves on. It is time to wake up from the decade long daydream that Russia can sustain a world class military without foreign tech.
If "locals" rise up, good. It'll be easier to deal with them.

Mobilisation would mean Russia economy is affected. Drafting military age men from the population of Russia means they are no longer doing something productive economically. There's a reason why it hasn't been done.

I agree that Russia seems to have the worst of both worlds right now. Soviet style corruption coupled with western "contractor" corruption.
 

sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
Russians can't do that anymore. Time to do that was when they first invaded and west hadn't yet send artillery & high-end gear, but now after suffering big casulaties especially on AFV forces, it's too late for any kinda "shock and awe" from Russian side.

You are undestimating the strategic depth of Russia(a finnish tradition) and who seems to be doing most of the fighting which is why the defense line in the East was so thin.

They still can do plenty of shock and awe once they cut the crap of letting Wagner and LPR/DPR take the brunt of the offensive.

Lend-lease will soon take effect and America to Ukraine weapon delieveries become more direct instead of slower dripping what we've seen so far.

Thing is, there is no industry neither in Europe or the US to back that, mate, no matter how hard you click your heels and say "There is no way like home". The first NASAMS are expected to arrive by 2024

Short of sending M1 and Leo2A6 from NATO own stocks, there is no much else to send other than more rockets, artillery rounds and missiles and MRAPs, which are extremely ill conceived for this type of warfare.
 

BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
Russians can't do that anymore. Time to do that was when they first invaded and west hadn't yet send artillery & high-end gear, but now after suffering big casulaties especially on AFV forces, it's too late for any kinda "shock and awe" from Russian side.

Lend-lease will soon take effect and America to Ukraine weapon delieveries become more direct instead of slower dripping what we've seen so far. That means unlimited supplies of artillery shells, etc.
I think Russia's best bet is sticking to Kherson, Luhansk and Donetsk. If they want to declare war, they may try going after Odessa too. Anything beyond that is unrealistic. They are better off trying a few years later after amending the stuff I listed earlier. Imagine waging a war of conquest in 2022 with supermarket-grade radios and no-proximity-fuse shells.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
The fact that Russia has no combat MALE drones the entire war speaks volumes about failure of Russian high command. You are not a power if you don't have combat MALE drones. Indeed. even a small number of TB2 showed important impact in the war. Imagine if Russia had hundreds of Mohajer 6. This is a small scale war. The entire Ukrainian army only has low hundreds tanks / BMP / BTR to begin with. Even a few squadrons of combat MALE drones would decisively shift the balance of power to Russians and they refuse to use combat MALE drones.
If there is a anyone who deserve to lose, it's Russians, and they have no one to blame but themselves.
Russia deserved to lose from day 1 when videos came out showing their isolated yo-yo convoys driving through the Ukrainian countryside with 0 infantry support and 0 air support. That was when I realised that Russia was in deep poo-poo
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think Russia's best bet is sticking to Kherson, Luhansk and Donetsk. If they want to declare war, they may try going after Odessa too. Anything beyond that is unrealistic. They are better off trying a few years later after amending the stuff I listed earlier. Imagine waging a war of conquest in 2022 with supermarket-grade radios and no-proximity-fuse shells.
What do you think about the rumours that Russia is going to buy military supplies from N.Korea?
I think this would be a good way for Chinese military supplies to be "mistakenly" shipped to Russia by "corrupt" N.Korean officers
 
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