At this moment, no one of sane mind will lend any money to Ukraine, so stacking the debt higher is basically EU or U.S. supporting Ukraine. With such a small economy, money printing will only go so far. When it is all said and done, Ukraine will either be a landlocked rump or will no longer exist as Russia will create different republics out of Ukraine. Even if Russia do decided to reconstitute Ukraine, the newly formed nation will not get any money from the West, so defaulting on its loans is a given.
The War in the Ukraine
- Thread starter SampanViking
- Start date
By all in I mean the west will increasingly supply newer and newer equipment to the Ukrainians like candies (mostly the US) , f-16s,a-10s, Abrams tank can all be on the table as long as they can train the Ukrainians to operate the equipment. For the US its no skin off their back and gives them an excuse to get rid of old equipment. In the case of tanks the only limit is the crew, the US has thousands of them just sitting in storage.
From anti-radiation missiles to NASAMs we can already see them leaning towards this direction, nothing decisive, but enough to change Russian planning.
My God I hope so. I so badly want to see the myth of all these toys get destroyed facing an actual military for the first time ever
We've already had a sneak peak at Abrams, leopards 2 and F15s in various hands
It's a shame that public support is already dieing out, especially when Ukrainian MPs just gave them selves 70 percent pay increases with our money and it's made it on TV here
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Daily summary of Russian MoD briefing:
▫The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation continue the special military operation in Ukraine.
▫As a result of Allied Forces offensive, 68th Jager Infantry, 66th Mechanized and 56th Motorized Infantry Brigades of AFU operating in Donetsk direction lost over 600 servicemen. In addition, some 160 servicemen of 66th Mechanized Brigade refused to take part in further combat operations. Command of AFU's Donetsk tactical group decided to withdraw these formations from their positions to the rear areas due to their loss of combat effectiveness.
Russian Aerospace Force's operational-tactical aviation strikes has destroyed more than 50 per cent of the personnel of 20th Battalion of 93rd Mechanized Brigade of AFU near Artemovsk. Due to high losses, battalion's soldiers voluntarily abandoned their positions and fled to an unknown destination.
▫18th Battalion of 35th Marine Brigade of AFU has been defeated near Lozovoye, Kherson Region, while attempting to stealthily cross the Ingulets River. More than 80 nationalists and 6 vehicles have been destroyed.
High-precision weapons of the Russian Aerospace Forces have hit temporary deployment point of 72nd Mechanized Brigade of AFU near Konstantinovka, Donetsk People's Republic. More than 80 nationalists and 8 vehicles have been destroyed.
Operational-tactical and army aviation, missile troops and artillery strikes continue against military facilities in Ukraine.
▫7 command posts have been hit, including those of 66th Mechanized Brigade near Novomikhailovka, 15th Rocket Artillery Regiment near Kurdyumovka in Donetsk People's Republic, 102nd Territorial Defence Brigade near Gulyaipole in Zaporozhye Region, and 47 artillery units in firing positions, as well as 212 areas of AFU manpower and military equipment concentration.
▫5 ammunition depots near Il'inka, Krasnaya Gora in Donetsk People's Republic, Novoalexandrovka in Zaporozhye Region, Shirokoye in Dnepropetrovsk Region, Snigirevka in Nikolaev Region, and combined logistics support facility of AFU near Orekhov in Zaporozhye Region.
As part of counter-battery warfare, 1 Uragan multiple-launch rocket battery near Dzerzhinsk in Donetsk People's Republic and 1 Smerch MLRS platoon near Rogan' in Kharkov Region have been hit.
▫In addition, 4 platoons of Grad multiple-launch rocket systems near Seversk, Artemovsk, Orlovka in Donetsk People's Republic and Barmashovo in Nikolaev Region, as well as 3 platoons of D-30 howitzers at firing positions near Soledar, Opytnoye and Antonovka in Donetsk People's Republic have been suppressed.
Russian air defence means have shot down 7 Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicles near Chernyanka, Belaya Krinitsa in Kherson Region, Nikol'skoye, Volnovakha and Trudovoye in Donetsk People's Republic.
▫Also, 2 shells of Ukrainian multiple rocket launchers have been intercepted near Kamenka in Kharkov Region.
In total, 268 Ukrainian airplanes and 148 helicopters, 1,803 unmanned aerial vehicles, 369 anti-aircraft missile systems, 4,382 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, 819 multiple launch rocket systems, 3,339 field artillery and mortars, as well as 5,034 units of special military vehicles were destroyed during the operation.
▫The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation continue the special military operation in Ukraine.
▫As a result of Allied Forces offensive, 68th Jager Infantry, 66th Mechanized and 56th Motorized Infantry Brigades of AFU operating in Donetsk direction lost over 600 servicemen. In addition, some 160 servicemen of 66th Mechanized Brigade refused to take part in further combat operations. Command of AFU's Donetsk tactical group decided to withdraw these formations from their positions to the rear areas due to their loss of combat effectiveness.
Russian Aerospace Force's operational-tactical aviation strikes has destroyed more than 50 per cent of the personnel of 20th Battalion of 93rd Mechanized Brigade of AFU near Artemovsk. Due to high losses, battalion's soldiers voluntarily abandoned their positions and fled to an unknown destination.
▫18th Battalion of 35th Marine Brigade of AFU has been defeated near Lozovoye, Kherson Region, while attempting to stealthily cross the Ingulets River. More than 80 nationalists and 6 vehicles have been destroyed.
High-precision weapons of the Russian Aerospace Forces have hit temporary deployment point of 72nd Mechanized Brigade of AFU near Konstantinovka, Donetsk People's Republic. More than 80 nationalists and 8 vehicles have been destroyed.
Operational-tactical and army aviation, missile troops and artillery strikes continue against military facilities in Ukraine.
▫7 command posts have been hit, including those of 66th Mechanized Brigade near Novomikhailovka, 15th Rocket Artillery Regiment near Kurdyumovka in Donetsk People's Republic, 102nd Territorial Defence Brigade near Gulyaipole in Zaporozhye Region, and 47 artillery units in firing positions, as well as 212 areas of AFU manpower and military equipment concentration.
▫5 ammunition depots near Il'inka, Krasnaya Gora in Donetsk People's Republic, Novoalexandrovka in Zaporozhye Region, Shirokoye in Dnepropetrovsk Region, Snigirevka in Nikolaev Region, and combined logistics support facility of AFU near Orekhov in Zaporozhye Region.
As part of counter-battery warfare, 1 Uragan multiple-launch rocket battery near Dzerzhinsk in Donetsk People's Republic and 1 Smerch MLRS platoon near Rogan' in Kharkov Region have been hit.
▫In addition, 4 platoons of Grad multiple-launch rocket systems near Seversk, Artemovsk, Orlovka in Donetsk People's Republic and Barmashovo in Nikolaev Region, as well as 3 platoons of D-30 howitzers at firing positions near Soledar, Opytnoye and Antonovka in Donetsk People's Republic have been suppressed.
Russian air defence means have shot down 7 Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicles near Chernyanka, Belaya Krinitsa in Kherson Region, Nikol'skoye, Volnovakha and Trudovoye in Donetsk People's Republic.
▫Also, 2 shells of Ukrainian multiple rocket launchers have been intercepted near Kamenka in Kharkov Region.
In total, 268 Ukrainian airplanes and 148 helicopters, 1,803 unmanned aerial vehicles, 369 anti-aircraft missile systems, 4,382 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, 819 multiple launch rocket systems, 3,339 field artillery and mortars, as well as 5,034 units of special military vehicles were destroyed during the operation.
Please provide a link next time.
More Americans are becoming Putin's puppets.
Six months on from the start of Russia’s military offensive against Ukraine, nearly three in ten Americans are unsure about continuing to support Kiev in the conflict, a new poll has shown.
While 53% of US adults agree that Washington should continue to support Kiev “until all Russian forces are withdrawn from territory claimed by Ukraine,” 28% are undecided, according to a released on Wednesday. Doubts about continuing to pump weapons and other aid into Ukraine are especially prevalent among independents, at 37%, while 18% of Americans oppose the shipments altogether.
The survey suggests waning support for US involvement as the conflict drags on, contributing to surging inflation on the home front. In fact, 40% of Americans now agree with the statement that “the problems of Ukraine are none of our business, and we should not interfere.” That compares with 31% when the same question was asked in April.
Moreover, 59% of survey respondents, including 69% of Republicans, agree with the statement that “given the current economic crisis, the US cannot afford to lend financial support to Ukraine.” About half (51%) still support providing weapons to Ukraine, down from 73% in April. Just 26% support sending US troops to Ukraine, down from 39% in April.
US President Joe Biden announced $3 billion in additional military aid to Ukraine on Wednesday, the biggest package of weaponry earmarked for Kiev since the fighting began in February. The US has committed more than $15.5 billion in military assistance to Ukraine since backing the overthrow of Kiev’s elected government in 2014. The lion’s share of that aid, $13.5 billion, has been announced over the past six months.
Americans are evenly divided on restricting imports of Russian oil and natural gas if doing so means paying higher prices for their own energy use. The survey showed that 50% support limits on imports from Russia, even at the expense of higher prices. Similarly, 49% agree that it’s more important to have gas supplies for their homes and businesses than to try to influence Russia. However, only 21% agree that anti-Russia sanctions aren’t worth the impact they’re having in the US.
Inflation is a far greater concern than the Ukraine crisis, the poll showed. While 58% of Americans are following the conflict at least “somewhat closely,” 75% are closely tracking news on inflation.
Americans increasingly doubt Ukraine support – poll
Fewer US adults are sold on backing Kiev against Russia than in earlier months of the conflict, a Reuters/Ipsos survey has shownSix months on from the start of Russia’s military offensive against Ukraine, nearly three in ten Americans are unsure about continuing to support Kiev in the conflict, a new poll has shown.
While 53% of US adults agree that Washington should continue to support Kiev “until all Russian forces are withdrawn from territory claimed by Ukraine,” 28% are undecided, according to a released on Wednesday. Doubts about continuing to pump weapons and other aid into Ukraine are especially prevalent among independents, at 37%, while 18% of Americans oppose the shipments altogether.
The survey suggests waning support for US involvement as the conflict drags on, contributing to surging inflation on the home front. In fact, 40% of Americans now agree with the statement that “the problems of Ukraine are none of our business, and we should not interfere.” That compares with 31% when the same question was asked in April.
Moreover, 59% of survey respondents, including 69% of Republicans, agree with the statement that “given the current economic crisis, the US cannot afford to lend financial support to Ukraine.” About half (51%) still support providing weapons to Ukraine, down from 73% in April. Just 26% support sending US troops to Ukraine, down from 39% in April.
US President Joe Biden announced $3 billion in additional military aid to Ukraine on Wednesday, the biggest package of weaponry earmarked for Kiev since the fighting began in February. The US has committed more than $15.5 billion in military assistance to Ukraine since backing the overthrow of Kiev’s elected government in 2014. The lion’s share of that aid, $13.5 billion, has been announced over the past six months.
Americans are evenly divided on restricting imports of Russian oil and natural gas if doing so means paying higher prices for their own energy use. The survey showed that 50% support limits on imports from Russia, even at the expense of higher prices. Similarly, 49% agree that it’s more important to have gas supplies for their homes and businesses than to try to influence Russia. However, only 21% agree that anti-Russia sanctions aren’t worth the impact they’re having in the US.
Inflation is a far greater concern than the Ukraine crisis, the poll showed. While 58% of Americans are following the conflict at least “somewhat closely,” 75% are closely tracking news on inflation.
Then it's back to my first point. You think it's so easy to train anyone on these things, and also who's paying for it as well? Regardless of whether the old equipment is a sunk cost or not.
@memfisa brings up a great point. Look at what happened to the Iraqi army against ISIS, or the Afghan National Army against the Taliban. The Iraqi army actually did have Abrams tanks, and their years of training still amounted to jack.
Turkish army and their handling of Leopards is probably worse than the Russians’ work in Ukraine.
Here’s the real calculation, how many people are even qualified for training, and how many people in that pool are even talented? It’s not a trivial question.
In terms of proxy conflict, the West is no where as commited directly as even Afghanistan at the moment. They've been sending surplus old equipment until very recently and that was enough to slow down the russians. If the US can afford to stay in the middle east for 20 years, what makes you think they can't just throw money at a Russia sized problem? It is cheap for them to use someone else to fight the enemy their military was designed for.
Of course finding people to train would be difficult, but you must also consider that Ukraine is forcibly conscripting all it's men, amongst them are civilians heavy equipment drivers, civilian pilots and civilian demolition experts, I struggle to see how a nation that had 44 million people pre-war will struggle with finding people to drive tanks. If that was the case Syria would've fallen long ago because they don't have enough people left to operate their tanks.
You are pointing at examples of countries that have basically defunct militaries with low morale, this is the opposite for Ukranian armed forces, which are limited more by lack of equipment then lack of will.
Ukraine had a regular force of 250 thousand battle hardened NATO trained soldiers that had been terrorizing Donbass for 8 years prior to February 2022, perfecting their art of killing Russian speakers and gaining battle experience
At the start of this conflict, they had a proper military that was balanced and filled out with equipment that covered almost every role, the largest mechanized force in all Europe rivaling the German, French and English.
Thousands of artillery, MLRS, amazing NATO and Soviet counter battery radars, manpads, atgms (including thousands of the unbeatable Javelin thanks to Trump and Obama) thousands of tanks, thousands of IFVs and APCs, mortars, rifles, a layered air defence system built around several different missile classes, millions of rounds for everything, transport helicopters and helicopter gunships, fighter and attack aircraft with full complements of weapons to go with then, they even had hundreds of ballistic missile launchers including the means to produce the replacements for this stuff. The entire military got combat experience terrorizing donbass all this time along with being trained by NATO.
So where is all that stuff now, and how on earth is nato equipment going to do any better?
What evidence do you have that NATO equipment slowed their pace? Ive been watching the evolution of this conflict since 2014 Euromaidan shenanigans, and since about March, its been the same slow and methodical advance west, taking a town, village every few days, a few more KMs west every few days, clearing out a city every few weeks, demining, securing logistics, and rebuilding. It hasn't changed much at all, it's a really boring war but they are taking the right approach to fight an army using isis tactics, while preserving their own.
As for Ukrainian morale, i wont touch that comment but ill say i do feel bad that this is the results of such an off the rails and out of control propaganda system thats been unleashed on westerners, and they believe it no matter what the topic is. That's terrifying
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