The War in the Ukraine

Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
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There has been a line of argument that Americans are more experienced vis a vis Chinese and Ive maintained that their experience has been versus a low tech poorly trained foes, its been akin to them playing video games on ez mode.

Id say in modern ground warfare, Russians And Ukrainians today have no peer.

Both China and US would be doing as much as possible to extract knowledge from their respective allies and Od say China hasnt really missed out on experience. US experience in Iraq and Afghanistan is irrelevant because they are not near peers but today, its also completely outdated.
The American experience of the last four decades has been based on fighting asymmetric wars and engaging in air battles against inferiorly equipped opponents without a MIC of its own. Since World War II, the US has not faced an opponent with a military capability of its own. Even in the Gulf War, Iraq did not have a MIC to support its military. Furthermore, Iraqi resistance was a complete joke. When ground military planning was carried out, the expected losses were 25% to cross the Saddam Line. This never happened because the Iraqis did not put up any resistance.

And if we talk about air-naval warfare, the American experience is the same as China's, totaling zero experience. They have not fought a naval war since World War II.

What Ukraine and Russia demonstrate is the ability to learn and adapt as the war progresses. A state can start a war one way and end it completely differently from when it started. Captain Charles D. Marashian conducted a
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in 1982 trying to correlate factors that implied combat effectiveness; experience implied a greater chance of survival, but not of effectiveness.

Military forces require institutions, processes and procedures that can learn the right lessons from field experience and improve their performance. Research institutes can help systematize insights into superior doctrines and develop more lethal weapons technology. Scientists have observed that a major source of the German army's adaptability and lethality in World War II was partly due to its deliberate and thorough analysis of its post-action reviews and willingness to implement changes accordingly. This was evident in the Gulf War, because in that war, Iraqi officers, especially Iraqi air force officers, had extensive combat experience from several years of fighting in the war against Iran, while American pilots who participated in the Gulf War had mostly never engaged in aerial combat. Yet American forces fared better in aerial confrontations. So it seems that training and experience are effective but not things that can be quantified. Experience alone provides a short-term advantage.

Political aspects, for example, are absolutely vital, because military personnel who can operate on the front line with minimal interference from political authorities tend to demonstrate greater adaptability on the battlefield than those whose decisions are made for political reasons rather than operational ones.

In other words, there is a much greater balance between the US and China.

We have already seen that the war in Ukraine is producing operational changes in the PLA, there are several lessons learned that will be increasingly introduced to the Chinese military, thus keeping them ahead of the development of modern combat.
 

drowingfish

Junior Member
Registered Member
I've read that the US gave something like 500 ATAMCS missiles, which is ~25% of their total stockpile. Most of those missiles are either spent or blown up by the Russians in some ammo depot by now.

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Zelensky, who resisted on the issue of lowering conscription age, now show signs of relenting. A bill is being introduced in the Ukrainian parliament to make it happen. Not yet voted upon. It's hard to know how many 18-25 year olds left Ukraine by bribing or going illegally, but it seems to be a substantial number. Not sure if lowering the conscription age will make much of a difference.

I suspect we will see the negotiations finally get serious under 2025. Ukraine is now on its last legs, but it remains to be seen if Russia will accept any offer. Putin may conclude that its better to just cripple them permanently instead. Then again, war-weariness is rising in Russia too. Most polls I've seen suggest that Russians would prefer negotiations over continued war.
It makes no sense, from Zelensky's perspective, he should either sue for peace without lowering the draft age, or lower it and see this thing through. If he believes that a deal is possible, then better to just try for that. If he commits political suicide by lowering the draft age, then a peace deal would see the end of his presidency.

Unless this is a political move to sway public opinion in favour of negotiating to end the war. The rada should first pass a bill to draft kids, then upon reflection Zelensky is compelled to fall upon the lesser of the two evils that is to end the war in order to preserve the future of Ukraine.
 

Tam

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Russia and Ukraine conducted a prisoner exchange in a 150 to 150 ratio.

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Compilation of Upyr FPV drone strikes including against a Baba Yaga.

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Another Baba Yaga intercepted with an FPV drone.

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AA firing at Geran drones but failed to shoot them down as the drones hit their targets

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Ukrainian air and sea drones shot down in the Sebastopol area.

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Russians completing the clearing of the outskirts in Kurakhovo.

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RuAF forces struck a Ukrainian command post in the Orekhiv sector, destroying communications equipment and towers.

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M113 is captured and evacuated to the Russian rear to a repair center. After which it will be repurposed for Russian use.

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Ukrainian buggy intended for troop rotation, was struck and destroyed by FPV drones. Other drone strikes include BMP and pickup. Hitting transportation units prevents rotation, supplies and reinforcement.

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Ukrainian position hit by thermobaric weapons.

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Knocked out Leopards in the Zaporozhye direction. Taken from a Ukrainian blogger. These tanks appear to be in the process of being evacuated back to the repair center.

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Faces of "North Koreans" in the Russian forces includes one looking like Sung Kang who played Han in the Fast and the Furious; actor Soon Joon-gwi; actor Lee Byung-hun and actor Ma Dong-seuk from Train in Busan. Time to declare war on the South Korean entertainment industry then.

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Also included are two Russian actors of Asiatic origin.

Leopard tank trying to sneak in the cover of darkness gets hit by FPV drones using thermal imagers. Kursk region.

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Sudja now 0km from the Russian front in the Kursk region.

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Russians continue to advance in Torestk.

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Russians advance towards Yantarny which may already be under direct assault.

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Russians have entered Lysovka.

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tygyg1111

Captain
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Russia and Ukraine conducted a prisoner exchange in a 150 to 150 ratio.

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Compilation of Upyr FPV drone strikes including against a Baba Yaga.

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Another Baba Yaga intercepted with an FPV drone.

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AA firing at Geran drones but failed to shoot them down as the drones hit their targets

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Ukrainian air and sea drones shot down in the Sebastopol area.

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Russians completing the clearing of the outskirts in Kurakhovo.

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RuAF forces struck a Ukrainian command post in the Orekhiv sector, destroying communications equipment and towers.

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M113 is captured and evacuated to the Russian rear to a repair center. After which it will be repurposed for Russian use.

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Ukrainian buggy intended for troop rotation, was struck and destroyed by FPV drones. Other drone strikes include BMP and pickup. Hitting transportation units prevents rotation, supplies and reinforcement.

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Ukrainian position hit by thermobaric weapons.

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Knocked out Leopards in the Zaporozhye direction. Taken from a Ukrainian blogger. These tanks appear to be in the process of being evacuated back to the repair center.

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Faces of "North Koreans" in the Russian forces includes one looking like Sung Kang who played Han in the Fast and the Furious; actor Soon Joon-gwi; actor Lee Byung-hun and actor Ma Dong-seuk from Train in Busan. Time to declare war on the South Korean entertainment industry then.

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Also included are two Russian actors of Asiatic origin.

Leopard tank trying to sneak in the cover of darkness gets hit by FPV drones using thermal imagers. Kursk region.

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Sudja now 0km from the Russian front in the Kursk region.

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Russians continue to advance in Torestk.

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Russians advance towards Yantarny which may already be under direct assault.

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Russians have entered Lysovka.

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I wonder what kind of meltdown will ensue when ultimately Ukraine folds / ceases to be able to fight, and the reporting frauds get revealed since there is no pretense to continue anymore...
 

Proton

Junior Member
Registered Member
I wonder what kind of meltdown will ensue when ultimately Ukraine folds / ceases to be able to fight, and the reporting frauds get revealed since there is no pretense to continue anymore...
The Biden administration has spent the last year and a half preparing a stab-in-the-back mythology in case of a Trump victory. Where Ukraine is expected to take unsustainable losses and depleting inventories to make the Democrats look good, and once the Republicans take over the snowball will start rolling ever faster.

They are still pretending Ukraine has a large unutilized reserve of manpower and Trump will be blamed for not increasing equipment shipments beyond the physical capabilities of the US. Problem is that while the 18-24 year olds haven't been mobilized, they have still been recruited. Chances are the proportion recruited within this demographic (or at least 20-24) is already larger than any other age group.

Remember both Russia and Ukraine inherited and modified the same system, males between 18-27 are liable for one year of conscription - and just like Russian volunteers are largely conscripts signing a contract - perhaps by varying means of persuasion - the same should be true for Ukraine. It's not like anyone outside of the top military offices, including Zelenskys, has access to real recruitment data.


(It's amazing to think that France could call up the equivalent of 20 whole years of males during the 4.5 years of WW1, despite having a full economy to run and producing ever more advanced munitions. But Ukraine is somehow running out of recruitable soldiers, while their total forces are estimated to be some 1.2m, with - according to Ukraine - only light casualties - all in all equaling some 3 years of Ukrainian males - or some 4-5 years if we deduct occupied territories and emigrants. While getting most supplies from abroad. )
 
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Tam

Brigadier
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AMX-10RC getting a full ATGM in the Kurakhovo sector indicates some elements of the French trained "Anna de Kyiv" 155th Brigade of the AFU is deployed there.

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Russians retake Agronom in the Kursk region.

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M142 HIMARS column in Kherson hit by Iskander strikes. Could be Patriot battery instead. Three strikes were observed, the second one had cluster munitions.

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VT-40 and Molinya FPV drones strike a Leopard tank.

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Ukrainian BMP-1 and M113 both knocked out. Ukrainian BMP-1 frequently still feature the original 76mm turret with a few modenized to a 30mm autogun turret. Every Russian BMP-1 I have seen have a modernized combat turret with a 30mm. More Ukrainian BMP-1 and BRM-1K found knocked out.

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A KVN fiberoptic drone strikes a Ukrainian BMP-2. A second KVN drone arrives at the scene and sees the BMP-2 turret completely blown out of the chassis.

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Ukrainian mortar site in Sumy region hit by FPV drone. Mortar ammunition detonates.

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T-64BV gets taken out.

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Russian flag raised in Novoolenovka.

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Never leave your UAV launcher on the roof right over your UAV command post. Russian artillery hit hard on this one in Kherson.

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Fiberoptic FPV takes out two Ukrainian SPGs and a Kozak-7 in the Kursk region.

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Ukrainian tank struck the back of a Ukrainian tank.

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Ukrainian supply transport falls under drone adjusted artillery fire.

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Russian Army receives a new batch of T-90M and T-72B3M tanks.

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Destroyed Ukrainian BTR-70M.

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A soldier of the 110th Brigade raises the Russian flag over a building in Kurakhovo.


A load of Russian drones with POM-2 antipersonnel jumping mines.

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X-39M LMUR being prepared on a Ka-52M.

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It's bad enough in Ukraine that even Santa Claus was mobilized, the holiday season cancelled.

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Ukrainian marine drone fired a missile at a Russian Mi-8 in the waters near Sevastopol. It is said the helicopter was shot down. But what I see is the helicopter releasing flares.

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Ukrainian T-72M firing at Russian lines get struck by drones, first by an FPV then by a drop.

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Ukrainian sea drone with EW system is used as a mothership for FPV drones and is meant to attack Russian oil platforms. This one however got knocked out.

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This Russian FPV drone attacking and striking a Ukrainian ATV appears to be using an autopilot guidance system with image recognition and tracking.

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JJD1803

Junior Member
Registered Member
There has been a line of argument that Americans are more experienced vis a vis Chinese and Ive maintained that their experience has been versus a low tech poorly trained foes, its been akin to them playing video games on ez mode.

Id say in modern ground warfare, Russians And Ukrainians today have no peer.

Both China and US would be doing as much as possible to extract knowledge from their respective allies and Od say China hasnt really missed out on experience. US experience in Iraq and Afghanistan is irrelevant because they are not near peers but today, its also completely outdated.
I have a funny story to tell from my job. I was talking to two security guards one of them is a veteran of the GWOT. He fought in Iraq and Afghan wars as infantry in the US army. The other is a young guy who is currently in the National Guard. We were talking about the Russo-Ukraine war. These guys were fucking delusional. The vet said “The war shows how weak Russia is. They should have ended that war in a year.” And the young guy said “That’s why the US military is superior because we have NCOs and train them well. Russia,China and Nort Korea have inferior militaries because they have no NCOs.” It’s crazy how bad the propaganda is brainwashing even to low ranking US servicemen. They were repeating the same propaganda tropes we see those ex generals that go on CNN and Fox News. I replied back the only reason why Ukraine has lasted this long is because the entire western world has poured billions of military aid to Ukraine and they are still losing ground. They shrugged it off.

These brain dead GWOT vets think fighting Sunni jihadist who didn’t have atgms or manpads gives them an edge in fighting a peer or near pear competitor. It doesn’t make sense at all. They haven’t fought a near peer competitor since the Korean War. Boomers fought in Vietnam and Desert storm. Gen X, fought in Desert Storm and the GWOT. Millennials and Gen Z fought the GWOT. You have four generations of military experience with no knowledge how to fight a major war against a big power. The arrogance the US has right now is similar to what Russia has before the Russo-Japan war. I mean if they are struggling against Yemen in the Red Sea how will they fare against China in the Pacific?
 
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