The War in the Ukraine

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
And which "cities" are these? Try looking at the map. It is more like capturing hamlets and trying to capture small villages and failing at it.
Maybe no large city out there but they are still Russian. If Ukraine dig in in Sudzha, not that big but it would be quite a mess tho... it's between Toresk and Niu-york in size for comparison. Bombing your own stuff and citizens is not the same than blowing up things in Ukraine.

On the scale of the war, they are not big in any way but on the Donbass front we have seen battle to take Spirne, a tiny village for nearly two years for example... I don't even think that you can call it an hamlet. If Ukraine dig in, It will take time to dig them out of there. They could do scorched earth tactics going back too.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Maybe no large city out there but they are still Russian. If Ukraine dig in in Sudzha, not that big but it would be quite a mess tho... it's between Toresk and Niu-york in size for comparison. Bombing your own stuff and citizens is not the same than blowing up things in Ukraine.

On the scale of the war, they are not big in any way but on the Donbass front we have seen battle to take Spirne, a tiny village for nearly two years for example... I don't even think that you can call it an hamlet. If Ukraine dig in, It will take time to dig them out of there. They could do scorched earth tactics going back too.
How are they going to dig in?

It takes a long time to dig field fortifications (months) even in friendly territory. And as you see here they're under artillery, air and drone attack 24/7.

Ukrainian fortifications were visible on satellite imagery even as early as 2018 for instance and some of the Donbass fortifications were there since 2015.
 

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
How are they going to dig in?

It takes a long time to dig field fortifications (months) even in friendly territory. And as you see here they're under artillery, air and drone attack 24/7.

Ukrainian fortifications were visible on satellite imagery even as early as 2018 for instance and some of the Donbass fortifications were there since 2015.
Time will tell.

Never said the Ukraine forces are doing well but city are fortification by themselves. Main control facilities of pipelines that deserve Europe are in Sudzha too.

Everyone can put sugar on the situation to make it taste better but it's clearly not great for the Russian side to have that thorn in the feet. Ukrainian pushing there with remaining forces could also make the war shorter if Russia could take big chunk before winter.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
You can catch the YouTube upload of the latest HIMARS take out here. The M142 launcher was taken out by an Iskander. A supply vehicles carrying six missiles and two supporting vehicles were also taken out.


The 810rd Marine Brigade has captured a Humvee. This unit has been on a big tear since coming on Kursk from Kherson.

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Ukrainian concentrations hit by Krasnopols at Kolotilovka, Kursk region.

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M1132 ESV Stryker with mine trawl destroyed by the 810rd Marine Brigade.

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Arty strikes by the 20th Army in Kupyansk. Two UAV control points and three mortar sites destroyed.

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Russians have captured much of Pivichne.

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The remains of destroyed Challenger tank, taken out by Lancet.

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Russian soldier goes up close and burns up an abandoned Ukrainian BMP-1. This is the same situation happening in the early days of the SMO but in reverse.

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Ukrainian convoy ambushed by the 810rd Marine Brigade.

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Two Kozaks taken out by the 30mm fire of a BTR-82 from the 810rd.

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Correction. It is the command post of the AFU 117th Infantry Brigade that was hit by a strike, with many casualties among it's staff.

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The 810rd Marine Brigade captured an AFU soldier from the AFU 92nd Brigade.

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Vikhr ATGMs take out two Ukrainian vehicles.

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TOS-2 in the Pokrovsk front.

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Uragan in South Donetsk.

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M777 taken out by Lancet in Kherson.

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Another 2S22 Bogdana 155mm SPG destroyed in the Donetsk.

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Destroyed Ukrainian 2S3 Akasya SPG.

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gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
Main control facilities of pipelines that deserve Europe are in Sudzha too.
So what? The gas fields are deep inside Russia in the Volga Urals and Siberia. So Ukraine won't have control of the gas source. The pipeline goes from Russia to Europe through Ukraine. So if Ukraine wanted to stop transit they could do it any time they wanted without entering Russia and capturing the transit station.

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Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
So what? The gas fields are deep inside Russia in the Volga Urals and Siberia. So Ukraine won't have control of the gas source. The pipeline goes from Russia to Europe through Ukraine. So if Ukraine wanted to stop transit they could do it any time they wanted without entering Russia and capturing the transit station.

View attachment 134260
If they control the valve they can make pressure on their European ''ally'' and choose to turn on or off the gas. On the economy side it will not bother Russia much, economy doesn't count a lot on EU right now anyway. But on the EU side, country that still rely on Russian gas will be impacted if they don't help Ukraine more. Some type of blackmail but at this point Ukraine is desperate so why not ?
 

FriedButter

Major
Registered Member
If they control the valve they can make pressure on their European ''ally'' and choose to turn on or off the gas. On the economy side it will not bother Russia much, economy doesn't count a lot on EU right now anyway. But on the EU side, country that still rely on Russian gas will be impacted if they don't help Ukraine more. Some type of blackmail but at this point Ukraine is desperate so why not ?

Ukraine already halted pipeline oil and partially gas to Hungary 1 month ago. They don’t need to control anything.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
Aren't you confusing the different sub-reddits? r/RussiaUkraineWar2022 is obviously pro-Ukrainian, r/UkraineRussiaReport has a very Russian bias.
I see half the page Ukrainian side these days since kursk, almost more than russian sides. No pro russia bias detected. It appeared pro russian because most of footage are russian sourced last couple month. What do you expect pro ukraine guys do, seethe in those posts? Now Ukraine is back on offensive the sub is balanced with ukraine side again.
 

_killuminati_

Senior Member
Registered Member
Some more information on the F-16 in Ukraine:

The clip with Zelensky showed the loadout for the first two F-16s. Everyone focuses on AIM-120B and AIM-9L or M but miss the thing next to the Sidewinder that is looking right at you.

View attachment 133632

View attachment 133633

It's PIDS+ (Pylon Integrated Dispensing System) made by Danish company Terma, which produces e.g. elements of the self-defense system of F-35. All the upgraded F-16 MLU which includes Danish, Dutch and Norwegian aircraft were equipped with this system which includes also internal modifications. The MLU components were delivered 2002-2007 and upgrades were completed by 2010-2011. It's not the cutting edge but current tech as far as Russia is concerned.

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The most significant change that the F-16s will bring to Ukrainian air operations is a modern self-defense system which none of their post-Soviet aircraft had using simple early 80s RWR. It should improve the survival chances dramatically because the main problem for Ukrainian pilots was lack of awareness when their aircraft is being targeted by enemy missiles without direct illumination.

AIM-120B lacks range but it is an ARH missile which will allow F-16 to fire at the enemy and evade. While SARH combat is like horsemen charging at each other with lances ARH combat is more like gunslingers shooting at each other from behind barrels in the main street. ARH allows wasting shots to force the enemy to disengage because fuel is scarce and a wasted sortie is a minor tactical win. AIM-120B lacks range to threaten Su-35 or MiG-31 but it evens the field for other aircraft, especially Su-34 and older.
This will force VKS to fly constant CAP for protection of other aircraft which was a problem in late 2022.

MLU has retained the AN/APG-66 which is a small aperture basic multimode radar and while significantly better than the radars of MiG-29 (N019) and even Su-27P (N001) lacks power and range and processing capabilities.

The biggest test will be adoption of NATO air tactics, especially air-based command and control. Ukraine uses Soviet ground-based command and control system. F-16s come with their own operating manuals so it stands to reason that pilots would be trained to co-operate with AWACS indications from across the border.

This interview with Justin Bronk is useful for getting the basic constraints and problems because he focuses on things that most people on SDF rarely think about - the fundamentals:


Note that everything that he says about ranges being affected by altitude and speed of each fighter applies to Russian fighters as well. Maximum ranges are achieved by fighters at maximum altitudes vs targets at low altitudes. Without R-37 the situation isn't particularly comfortable for VKS so Russia will continue to rely on SAMs for suppression and unlike fighters SAMs can be targeted by counter-fire from other aircraft and rocket artillery. F-16s can serve as decoys for HARM and HIMARS.

So while these F-16s won't change much in offensive capabilities - for that numbers above 100 are necessary - they are a significant complication provided that the pilots and supporting crews have been properly trained to utilise proper tactics. Until now Ukraine simply didn't have the necessary aircraft because old Soviet planes lacked everything that was necessary to do that. F-16 MLUs have it.

However this is theory. In practice Ukraine has a rather awful track record in implementation of NATO solutions. We shall if two years of training changed anything.

Two more maps from march of 2023 (from a different forum - just as full of idiots as SDF but in the opposite political direction). They demonstrate notional ranges of Su-24 and F-16 for ground attack missions with S-400 and Su-35S present. Su-24 flying lo-lo-lo has combat range of 600km. F-16 flying hi-lo-hi with tanks has 500-550km. Maps also show existing bases, although F-16s can be used from prepared roadstrips. Ukrainian airbases apart from a few lack reinforced hangars. This will reduce the effective range.

Large images (3000x2000px):

Su-24
View attachment 133642

F-16
View attachment 133643

In March 2023 Ukrainian bad joke of an offensive hasn't begun so talk about Crimea as a direction was viable. It still is, but the priority will be in defending the western and south-western parts of the country from aerial attacks to protect whatever is left of infrastructure.

F-16 will also serve as means to force Russia to expend jets and munitions on attacking the bases. If they don't do it then the number of F-16s and confidence of pilots will grow over time which is bad. But to destroy F-16s decisively they must launch large attacks which will expose aircraft to SAMs.

As Bronk says Pilots are the primary constraint. There were many more available F-16s than there were pilots capable of flying them in combat. The same applies to Russia. Lose a few too many aircraft over Ukrainian-controlled territory and VKS will put its tail between its legs and run like it did in 2022. Russia has planes but it lacks pilots capable and willing to fly them into combat. Many of Ukraine's GBAD teeth have fallen out since then but they still can bite if someone is too careless.

So perhaps the air war will finally become more interesting. Or perhaps not.

I haven't been paying attention to this conflict for almost a year, mostly keeping tabs on material trends. Literally: I post things that I want to keep on record and I made only fifteen posts in this thread since August 4 of 2023 which is little over one post per month and none of them was about current events.

Anyway... it's Monday already? Damn...
I think the Ukr F-16s will also be aided by RAF and USAF (as well as other NATO) assets outside of Ukraine's border, such as the Rivet Joint, E-3, EF-18A and MQ-4 that regularly fly out of Constanța (Romania) and Sigonella (Italy) and over the Black Sea. Also, the units based in Rzeszow,
Screenshot_20240816-025048_Flightradar24.jpg
(right now^)
 
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