The War in the Ukraine

Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
Registered Member
Their AD loss is almost certainly a result of them having pushed up into riskier positions to cover new fronts and to shield their new types of operations. Russia started often striking the rear guards and barracks at a pace it hasn't done since the start of the conflict.

Russia went from almost zero AD loss to maybe almost 10 launchers, this coincided completely with the new front being started.

US drones were flying before that and Ukraine used the same mix of weapons. There is a cost benefit analysis to shooting US assets whether it really helps a lot in achieving battlefield objectives. As observers, we cannot know how useful those drones actually are.

Besides, if they're useful, it's only at aiding offensive strike ops in the Crimea region. Where Russia is really not feeling pressure at all. Russia's main fight remains on the strategy to run Ukraine out of conscripts, and it's hard to see how US drones contribute towards making that mission more difficult, because the issue is more the sheer weight of bodies distributed into trenches Ukraine can put out.
I am afraid that the Ukrainian suppression campaign of Russia's air defense systems in Crimea had as a change the presence of ATACMS as a viable alternative to this suppression, because HARM was not performing well nor was the Storm Shadow that were being used for this task.

It is worth remembering that ATACMS were used as a J-SEAD weapon during Operation Desert Storm, suppressing an Iraqi air defense site(SA-2) a few minutes after a request for fire support from an A-10. After that war, ATACMS were used again as a J-SEAD weapon in Operation Iraqi Freedom, firing around 450 ATACMS, of which 290 ATACMS were launched during the first two days, with the majority being as cover for J-SEAD missions.

With the change in approach, to effectively employ ATACMS in a SEAD role, the ukrainian commander had to include ATACMS as a weapon in his process and consider it as a potential SEAD weapon.

The US Army are taking this to another level:
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Index

Senior Member
Registered Member
I am afraid that the Ukrainian suppression campaign of Russia's air defense systems in Crimea had as a change the presence of ATACMS as a viable alternative to this suppression, because HARM was not performing well nor was the Storm Shadow that were being used for this task.

It is worth remembering that ATACMS were used as a J-SEAD weapon during Operation Desert Storm, suppressing an Iraqi air defense site(SA-2) a few minutes after a request for fire support from an A-10. After that war, ATACMS were used again as a J-SEAD weapon in Operation Iraqi Freedom, firing around 450 ATACMS, of which 290 ATACMS were launched during the first two days, with the majority being as cover for J-SEAD missions.

With the change in approach, to effectively employ ATACMS in a SEAD role, the ukrainian commander had to include ATACMS as a weapon in his process and consider it as a potential SEAD weapon.

The US Army are taking this to another level:
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Not really applicable to the experience in this war as the Iraqis had no networked air defense nor even that many individual air defenses of note either.

It is pretty basic doctrine to use ballistic missiles (and as much other munitions) to overcome air defenses, it would be weird if US didn't know about it before.
Not trying to attack air defenses by multiple vectors would only work on extremely old and non-communicating air defenses. I think US should have known this since some time, even if they didn't have the real life experience of fighting an enemy with air defense, they can still practice using their own air defense and come to the conclusions.
 

Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
Registered Member
Not really applicable to the experience in this war as the Iraqis had no networked air defense nor even that many individual air defenses of note either.

It is pretty basic doctrine to use ballistic missiles (and as much other munitions) to overcome air defenses, it would be weird if US didn't know about it before.
Not trying to attack air defenses by multiple vectors would only work on extremely old and non-communicating air defenses. I think US should have known this since some time, even if they didn't have the real life experience of fighting an enemy with air defense, they can still practice using their own air defense and come to the conclusions.
That is the question. The US knew, Ukraine didn't. This close collaborative capacity is something Ukrainians would never have dreamed of imagining just a few months ago.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Four FAB-250 UMPK or UMPB strikes a Ukrainian stronghold in the right side of the Dniepr.

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Somewhere in the Donetsk, a Humvee gets struck by an FPV drone.

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Zagorny in the Zaporozhye region falls to Russian hands.

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ODAB-1500 hit on a location of newly arrived gathering Ukrainian reserves in Krasnoliman.

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Another Ukrainian deployment point of assault units gets hit by a FAB. This in Gulyaypole.

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Ukrainian BTR-4E knocked out by a Lancet near Glubokoe.

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In the village of Pristin, an AN/TPQ-36 radar gets knocked out by a Lancet.

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Rooks SPN tracked Ukrainian troops to a large house they use as a shelter. The 238th Artillery Brigade hit the shelter with a precise strike.

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A Ukrainian position in Volchansk gets hit by FABs.

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First time I see a Lancet strike a group of soldiers not in a vehicle or a shelter. An attempt to evacuate the wounded leads to a Lancet hitting the entire squad. Due to visible human casualties this won't be linked. This means however that target limits for Lancets are further removed.

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Ukrainian depot of mortar shells hit by artillery in the Kharkhiv front near Liptsy.

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Krasnopol kill on a Ukrainian artillery piece, by the Siberian Association. This should be Ochertino flower.

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This is interesting. Instead of a LMUR, a Vikhr ATGM from a Mi-28NM hits a house where Ukrainian UAV operators are occupying.

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FABs arrive at Ukrainian positions in Synkivka.

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Russians have cleared the center of Krasnogorovka.

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Ukrainian M-198 155mm howitzer gets taken out by a Lancet in the Volchansk direction.

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A Ukrainian D-30 howitzer in the Volchansk direction gets taken out in the Volchansk direction.

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Russian soldier not affected by the fragmentation field from an exploding Ukrainian FPV drone.

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Krasnopol strike on a Ukrainian IFV.

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Soviet 85mm D-44 gun in service with the 32nd Mechanized Brigade of the AFU. We keep seeing more and more odd and vintage artillery pieces with the AFU as their regular pieces are running out or gets destroyed. This one is straight out of 1944.

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sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
But most SAM losses were in Crimea, where the front has not moved.

Which kinda works in Ukraine's favor as they can launch their saturation strikes reliably along all of the coast where they also have far more reliable ISR assets since NATO exploit international air space to their advantage by flying both P-8 and Global Hawks in the area, monitoring AD positions in real time and offering targeting solutions.

Still the results have been increasingly lackluster as the Russians adapt to the threat.

Ukraine airstrikes near Russian border

You should probably mention that this area was in Ukraine's hand a couple of weeks ago, so it means it has been recently captured by Russia. Not as dramatic as implying that Ukrainians are totally about to dump SDB's on Belgorod's downtown

So pro-Russian groups in here tend to dismiss the coming Ukraine F-16's with retorts of Russian IADS will deter them and the more popular retort of Russian fighters armed with R-37M's will keep F-16's far away from frontlines yet we see here JDAM airstrikes likely from SU-27's or Mig-29's hitting targets pretty much at the Russian border.
I'm kinda digging the way you are trying to spin this into some sort of game changing situation and also a common ocurrence now, trying to pretend there isn't a specific context going on in this area, including the situation that they probably had to fly really low all the way to launch them, cutting the range of the bombs considerably but likely to be deemed a worthwhile trade-off afforded by the fact there are clear still clear ways to aproach Kharkiv from the Southwest at low level.

Being these routes relatively far away from more active and dangerous areas of the front-line, kept them away from MANPAD and lower level SAM systems. Also seems to have helped the fact that either EW assets haven't been deployed yet or were off since we are aware that SDB's are a fairly known quantity to Russian EW crews, as pointed out multiple times by several articles.

So, unless there is an stealth F-16 version Ukraine is going to receive we are not aware off, they'll be forced to do the exact same type of flying to avoid getting nailed either by Foxhounds or long range AD just the same. Physics doesn't really care about the current wunderwaffen.

yet somehow outdated soviet era Ukraine fighters managed to get in JDAM range of Russian border.

No offense, mate, but you really need to stop treating this place like its full of idiots. GBU-39's aren't your grandma's JDAM; heck they aren't JDAM's at all to begin with. You trying to imply it, is disingenous to say the least.

They are glide bombs and as such even from a low level, with a lofted trajectory , they can still achieve some range to afford some safety to the platform.


As US/Ukraine takes out Russian IADS especially in Crimea and other occupied territories Ukraine F-16's are going to have much success delivering their JDAM ordinance and other standoff-ish weapons.

As we all know, Ukraine is taking out entire batteries and not some components of it and the Russians can't replace them at all, neither components or batteries, apparently, lol.

You seem to be projecting Ukraine's (and NATO's) AD situation on Russia for one reason or another, while also failing to acknowledge how many assets, irreplaceable ones at that, Ukraine has to spend against these targets to neutralize them, likely temporarily, because you should probably know, they are the manufacturers of that equipment and bothered to keep some manufacturing capability around.


Funny you don't seem to show the same level of "optimism" for the Russians, though, considering RuAF has more leeway over Ukrainian skies, and for every image of a destroyed S-300/S-400, we get images of at least 2 o 3 Ukranian AD systems compromised one way or another. But I guess those are all decoys, don't know why Ukraine needs more AD systems if they really haven't lost any.


On that note, there is a complete image of the damage on Morozovsk AB. Seems that outside of the hangar, they hit a whole load of emtpy parking spots.

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blackjack21

Junior Member
Registered Member
With the change in approach, to effectively employ ATACMS in a SEAD role, the ukrainian commander had to include ATACMS as a weapon in his process and consider it as a potential SEAD weapon.

The US Army are taking this to another level:
sweet, but how long will it take for either side to bring them into operation?
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Honestly, the only thing I will consider impressive if either side has a Hermes MLRS system operational that launchers supersonic missiles that home onto moving targets.
 

Index

Senior Member
Registered Member
That is the question. The US knew, Ukraine didn't. This close collaborative capacity is something Ukrainians would never have dreamed of imagining just a few months ago.
Ukraine probably also knew? They also had varied types of missiles at the start and modern AD systems to practice with. I don't think US had to tell Ukraine such basic things.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
sweet, but how long will it take for either side to bring them into operation?
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Honestly, the only thing I will consider impressive if either side has a Hermes MLRS system operational that launchers supersonic missiles that home onto moving targets.
Drone swarm is of limited utility without ISR, I really don't think either side have sufficient ISR that a swarm will be super effective. Most strikes we see are of highly isolated vehicles. There are no large formations to destroy since they are not present at the front.

Probably would have worked earlier in the war when massed formations were commonly employed.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
But most SAM losses were in Crimea, where the front has not moved.

It could be that as a result of the front moving, Russian medium and short range SAM systems were forward deployed to support the advance and that left gaps in their coverage to allow NATO to plot attacks that bypassed them and saturate the S3/400s.

Something that always bothered me with the Russian S3/400 losses of late was why they weren’t adequately supported by medium and short ranged systems to help take some of the pressure off when being spam attacked.

The loss of the A50(s) is ultimately what hurt the most, as that airborne view was critically important in covering gaps in coverage of ground based systems and give SAMs much more warning time of incoming attacks.

I still think the Russians are being too meek in just letting NATO ISR operate risk free in the Black Sea to blatantly co-ordinate attacks. Doing so gives Russia all the legal justification it needs to engage in active self defence and kill those NATO birds per the UN charter. Is NATO going to go to war over the shoot down of a UAV? Of course not. The Russians don’t really have much to loose in shooting down NATO drones when they are blatantly acting as the entire kill chain for Ukrainian attacks.

Without real time NATO ISR support, Ukrainian attacks won’t be remotely as effective as they have been.
 
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