The War in the Ukraine

TK3600

Major
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24 Feb
Collapse of Operation Citadel 2.0

Konstantin Sivkov

Vice President of the Russian Academy of Missile and Artillery Sciences for Information Policy, Doctor of Military Sciences

The goals of the Ukrainian army’s offensive in the summer of 2023 and the size of combat groups formed to carry it out are to a certain extent comparable with what the German military fielded for its Operation Citadel in 1943. This gives us the grounds for calling Kiev’s offensive in the summer of 2023 Operation Citadel 2.0.

Considering its military-political consequences, the collapse of Citadel 2.0 meant not simply the Ukrainian army’s military-strategic defeat but also the collapse of the consolidated West’s hybrid blitzkrieg.
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For this operation, the enemy created a formidable grouping of forces, which numbered almost 160,000 personnel (110 battalions), 2,100 tanks and other armored vehicles, 960 field artillery guns and 114 aircraft. Such an amount of artillery helped create a fire density of up to 10 guns per km of the frontline in the directions of the main attack. The Ukrainian military set up substantial stocks of ammunition: over 500,000 155mm shells, more than 150,000 shells of other calibers, 560,000 mortar rounds and 50 Storm Shadow long-range precision cruise missiles. This density of the Ukrainian army’s artillery and ammunition stocks enabled it to carry out as many as 190 firing missions daily.
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The Ukrainian army’s strike force should be compared with combat groups and capabilities that took part in battles recorded in world history to have an idea about its scope. In this regard, it will be interesting to compare it with the battlegroup that Nazi Germany’s Wehrmacht deployed against the Soviet Army in its Operation Citadel in the Battle of Kursk in the summer of 1943. According to German data (Mueller-Hillebrand, German Army. 1933-1945), two strike forces had a total strength of about 780,000 personnel, 2,540 tanks and self-propelled artillery systems (with extra 218 weapons under repairs), about 10,000 field guns and over 2,000 aircraft at that time.
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Russian troops built two, and in the most important directions, three defensive lines, with reserves attached to vast expanses in front of the first basic positions in the tactical zone of defense with sentries and minefields. Along the entire frontline, Russian forces equipped over 3,000 platoon strongholds, 45,000 dugouts and more than 150,000 shelters for equipment. They built about 2,000 km of anti-tank ditches and laid over 7,000 km of minefields, planting about 5 million mines. The minefields were twice as deep as required by the regulations, reaching 600 meters in depth. All this huge amount of work was carried out by military builders, engineer and railway troops. Civilian organizations also assisted Russian troops. The state company Avtodor and specialists from Moscow, the Moscow Region, Crimea and other Russian regions rendered considerable assistance in equipping defense areas.

Such a powerful system of engineered structures and fortifications helped create sustainable defense, even though the enemy enjoyed superiority over the defending troops by 1.5 times in terms of manpower, 1.2 times in terms of armor and 1.3 times in terms of artillery in major attack directions.

Aside from the troops in defense, the Russian military command set up considerable reserves intended to bolster the defending forces and launch counterattacks. The reserves comprised two full-fledged armies that had a total numerical strength of about 60,000 personnel and over 8,600 combat and special vehicles, including 980 tanks and other armored vehicles, and also more than 2,200 various motor vehicles. Considerable forces of army, operational-tactical, long-range and even strategic aviation provided support for the Russian troops.
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The Russian Army also set up a sufficient stock of ammunition for high-intensity battles for a long period, including UAVs of various designation whose total number was as large as 10,000, judging by the intensity of their use reported from open sources.
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The Ukrainian army began its offensive on June 4, 2023 by delivering a massive artillery strike and subsequently committing a considerable number of mechanized troops with heavy armor to action, in particular, units operating powerful Western-made tanks delivered to Ukraine, particularly, Leopard 2A6 tanks, and also US-made Bradley infantry fighting vehicles. In this regard, the Ukrainian military repeated the Wehrmacht’s actions of July 5, 1943.
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The enemy’s armored units advancing in the main direction initially suffered losses from strikes by Russian crews of anti-tank missile systems deployed at forward positions and helicopters. In this defense, Russian Kornet anti-tank missile systems demonstrated their capability effectively to strike Western Leopard 2A6 newest and well-armored tanks. After that, the Ukrainian military encountered minefields and had to move in a long column behind minesweepers. After the enemy’s forward armored vehicles were struck, the columns had to stop, search for a detour and try to retreat. Russian troops delivered artillery strikes on the enemy’s armor concentrated on limited terrain outside the cover of the Ukrainian army’s already thinned-out air defenses while army aircraft carried out sorties to destroy it by anti-tank missiles, and attack aircraft and unmanned aerial vehicles also operated effectively. As a result, the enemy sustained heavy casualties. Nonetheless, it continued its attempts to break through the Russian defenses by armored fists for two more weeks.
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The Ukrainian army’s losses over the period of its offensive turned out to be huge and considerably exceeded the initial strength of the attack force that was replenished during battles by ill-trained personnel and far from the best combat hardware from reserves of the rear. The Ukrainian grouping’s losses amounted to 166,000 personnel or 25% above its initial strength, 789 tanks and 2,400 other armored vehicles or more than 50% above the initial amount, 132 aircraft or 15% more than what the Ukrainian military had by the time of its offensive.
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We should note that in repelling the Ukrainian army’s offensive in the summer of 2023, the Russian Army actively employed various types of UAVs, considerably outnumbering the enemy’s unmanned aerial vehicles. Russian troops used 1,200 Lancet loitering munitions and 4,400 FPV drones alone in the battles.
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Ukraine and generally even the collective West suffered grave military and political consequences of the failure of Operation Citadel 2.0. The failure of the Ukrainian army’s offensive meant not only a strategic defeat of Kiev’s forces but also the collapse of the united West’s hybrid blitzkrieg when huge economic losses related to unprecedented sanctions and enormous deliveries of various armaments yielded no results. A trend for the West to lose its status as the ruler of the world’s destinies intensified. In turn, this triggered the process of reducing the Western civilization’s spheres of influence, considering that the BRICS association expanded to 11 countries and another 27 states applied for the organization’s membership.
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However, despite such a heavy defeat suffered by the Ukrainian military, the enemy is still strong enough. This is because it is the US-led united West rather than Ukraine with its armed forces that is Russia’s main enemy and Ukraine is just one of the fronts of the West’s hybrid war against Russia. The failure of the first hybrid blitzkrieg does not mean a cessation of the war against Russia. On the contrary, this implies expanding the aggression and beefing up the entire set of actions constituting hybrid warfare, including the opening of new fronts of the armed confrontation.

That is why, similar to how the Soviet Army had a long way to Berlin after winning the Battle of Kursk, today Russia still has to embrace a long struggle after Kiev’s botched Operation Citadel 2.0 until the Final Victory that it will certainly win. But it has already achieved the first and truly Big Victory.
Name of Operation Citadel 2.0 is so stupid. Germans made encirclement and destruction of several Soviet divisions, even though it failed. Ukraine's big 2023 grind achieved none of that. It was a disproportional slaughter. The only big gain they made was after first year when Russia was low on manpower, but those hardly compares.
 

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
Name of Operation Citadel 2.0 is so stupid. Germans made encirclement and destruction of several Soviet divisions, even though it failed. Ukraine's big 2023 grind achieved none of that. It was a disproportional slaughter. The only big gain they made was after first year when Russia was low on manpower, but those hardly compares.
It kind of goes both ways though. At Kursk the Red Army held in reserve over half a million men in Steppe Front which when unleashed in a counterattacked took a lot of ground quickly including German tank repair depots, and that lead to a lot of the irreversible armour loses on the German side.

If this counterattack against Robotyne works and all those broken down Bradley and Leo 2 are still there for the taking that's going to be pure dumb luck on Russian side and incompetence on Ukraine side, consider the length of time between end of the Summer Counteroffensive and now.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
This Gepard is now an ace, with five Geran kills.

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Russian Tor takes out a UAV.

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TOS strikes from the 26th Regiment.

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ZALA Supercam spotted this CAESAR SPG, and a Lancet of the 16th SPN Brigade took care of it. Kupyansk region.

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FABs struck a railway station in Konstantinovka, a strategic logistics hub for the AFU.

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Lancet takes out a 2S1 Gvozdika. Ukrainian artillery keeps attriting every day.

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Missile strikes against Patriot system at Petrovskogo. Likely Tornado-S. One channel says the target is an RM-70 MLRS.

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Russian forces are now inside Krasnogorovka and there's street fighting.

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Krasnopol strikes on Ukrainian shelters and warehouses.

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Lancet takes out a Ukrainian tank. From the Siberia special unit.

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Arty strike at the right bank of the Dniepr on a UAV deployment point. By the 126th Brigade.

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Precision strikes on the west side of Chasiv Yar on Ukrainian strongholds. By the 98th VDV.

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2S1 Gvozdika in Kherson gets taken out by Lancet from the VDV.

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2S7M Malka working on Ukrainian strongholds in Ugledar. If you're not familiar what a Malka is, this is an SPG with a huge 203mm gun. I think the shells used here are laser guided.

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Tragic blue on blue. This footage shows a Russian SAM fired at the A-50U which fired heat transfer traps.

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Ukrainian warehouses hit at the right bank of the Dniepr.

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Abandoned Marder IFV in Zaporozhye, a victim of FPV drones.

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Geran arrives at it's target in Dnipropetrovsk.

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AFU warehouses burning in Dnipropetrovsk.

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SlothmanAllen

Junior Member
Registered Member
If we are going on a hypothetical NATO army against a Russian army I don't think they would do much better than the Ukrainians who just have more of a reason to fight the war than them because they will still be backed by incompetent military planning and companies backing them.

What are the goals of this hypothetical NATO military? Evict Russia from Ukrainian territory?

I don’t see why that wouldn’t be possible for NATO to achieve. You’d have to near 100% buy-in from the member states and of course the US has to be on board.

Just think about what NATO air power could do for the Ukrainian Army as it exists today? Air Sumpremacy would be a nightmare for Russia. Unless they send their troops back into Russia, no part of Ukraine would be safe from attack.
 

blackjack21

Junior Member
Registered Member
Just think about what NATO air power could do for the Ukrainian Army as it exists today? Air Sumpremacy would be a nightmare for Russia. Unless they send their troops back into Russia, no part of Ukraine would be safe from attack.
Assuming if 1000 F-16s were to be used in ukraine with 1000 trained pilots being claimed as mercenaries it will be at that point the russians would not give a fuck who they would hit because it would be likely civilian aircrafts will not be in the airspace anyways and the Russians have 1000s of missiles with conventional warheads that have over 1000km ranges to target the aircrafts, ammunition and refueling stations through satellites or monitor the aircraft traffic with OTH radars that has the capabilities to see 1000s of aircrafts flying and wherever it lands will be the targeted coordinated positions by missiles.

it's like people are having the assumption here that Russians will fight fair and not target airfields or hangers with missiles that fuel and supply aircrafts. Whatever exists of the Ukrainian Airforce at this rate is nearly gone with not much of a threat to Russian ground forces and what is left they would probably want to use drones over expensive missiles if they keep grabbing ukrainian territory.
 

blackjack21

Junior Member
Registered Member
this is what some user said on kiwifarms, and the post looked so good it should be posted here as well. His words not mine.

With the front being the way it is we have not seen this much movement since 2022. This phase of the war looks like the early phase of the war after the bait and switch with the peace deal but before Ukraine had managed to finish mobilization. The difference now is there is no way Ukraine can mobilize to fix their problems.

I'd thought I take the opportunity to discuss a general picture of how things might go in a more detailed manner than I have before and discuss the maneuver warfare question.

When armies collapse it doesn't happen all of the sudden. It is a slow process which culminates in the army being able to give ineffectual resistance. Ukraine is in the process of collapsing right now but they are still able to give some resistance which results in Russian Casualties and means Russia can't simply do whatever they want whenever they want. I think this is going to result in a situation not too unlike Avdeevka/Bakhmut/Soledar where Ukrainians can't retreat and eventually get bottled up into cities. We have seen that song and dance before so I won't discuss that too much.

The next place something like that is going to happen is probably here. This war is really starting to bring up comparisons to 2014. (my prediction about Siversk appears to be wrong though I made it to test a theory). Anyway this is one of the last big and really strong defensive lines left in the Donbass. It is the last line but the other ones are weaker and easier to take. This will be a hard fight that is probably going to take at least a month or so. There will still be movement in the south and it may even be quick and impressive but I think this will eventually turn into the main show.
1708831869526.png
But once that is done and some of the other defensive lines in the south are taken Ukraine will be much more open to attack. If reports about the situation west of Avdeevka are true Ukraine is having trouble having infantry even construct basic trenches because they keep getting harassed by drones.

Taking one part of a line invalidates the rest of the line unless it has another line bisecting it that prevents the Russians from moving horizontally. This lines definitely make things take longer.
1708832638493.jpeg
Which brings up something I think might happen as this war develops. Ukrainians without fortifications will be extremely vulnerable out in the open. The obvious thing to do and what Ukrainians have done in the past is retreat to cities and use them as Ersatz fortifications. This will eventually leave Russia with a decision to make once it starts getting to places like Dnipro, Poltava and Kharkov. Does Russia spend a lot time and resources taking those cities or do they bypass them. I am leaning towards Russia eventually bypassing those cities and leaving a small amount of troops surrounding the city and slowly destroy the Ukrainian defenders over time rather than stopping to take the city and then keep going.

I think Russia will do this because they want to maximize the pressure they put on Ukraine. The slower they move the more time Ukraine has to train up troops and try and build new defensives.

Which brings me into the question of is Maneuver war still possible? My answer to that is yes but probably not in the WW2 Germans surrounding everyone in a blitzkrieg manner. Driving a narrow line through enemy territory is a bad idea. The problem is simply that the more you drive a deep but narrow line into the enemy the more and more you open yourself up to enemy fire. Perimeter minimization comes into play here.

If that is true why had Russia had such a hard time implementing it? This is the impetuous that made me write this. The reason Russia has had so much trouble in the Donbass is because it is incredibly Urban. This is what made it possible for Ukraine to build fortifications. Look at the Donbas and how many cities it has. Once Russia breaks out of the Donbas it will be much easier to just drive north and capture everything. There will be hardly any cities in the way. It will also help that Ukraine will be degraded to all hell by the time Russia gets here.
Population_density_in_Ukraine.png
 

SolarWarden

Junior Member
Registered Member
NATO would have same issue or worse than a Russia.
Russia was fighting against an air defence of integrated S300
NATO would be fighting against an air defence of integrated S400. In addition to fight all the planes that Russia is not using, that count for hundreds.

NATO looses would be catastrophical. And they would get into trouble

Moreover the logistics are bad. If planes fly from Poland the front line is out of the range of all combat planes.

And Russia would not sit iddle.
Russia has as many nuclear Submarines as the U.S. If NATO is already attacking Russia, why Russia would not put some of them in the Atlantic and sink any civil ship passing by demolishing NATO logistics.

Russia would also shot down all pipelines crossing Georgia and don’t let any Kazakhstan gas /petrol arrive to Europe across its territory.

Russia would shot down satellites.

If Iran decides to collaborate with Russia they can shot down the Hormuz strait for any western ship.

From Kaliningrad they will launch ballistic and cruise missile to any industry in Germany and Poland. And of course to all NATO bases and military commands. Of course they would not achieve a full success. But would make NATO bleed

China would use instantly the opportunity and take Taiwan.

And this even without going nuclear

I don’t know why people assume that NATO can participate in this war without suffering anything.
There is a reason why NATO does not participate and this is related with all the pain Russia can create for them
If Ukraine, with little to no air force, can lob a small number of stormshadows giving Russian s300/s400 a nightmarish time I wonder what it would look like for Russia going up against hundreds of cruise missiles, SEAD/DEAD aircraft, EW aircraft and stealth fighters and bombers all targeting IADS, COM and airbases at the same time under high-tech conditions with US/NATO having full control of SA and battlespace picture.

It doesn't look pretty now with Russia not being able to get air superiority over the frontlines just across its border to help its ground forces it would likely look like the end of the world to them if they were on the receiving end of such attack.

Let's be honest about this: Russian forces wouldn't be able to fend off such an overwhelming attack. They can't stop Ukraine tossing a few scalps from getting through... I mean come on dudes lets face reality here.
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
If Ukraine, with little to no air force, can lob a small number of stormshadows giving Russian s300/s400 a nightmarish time I wonder what it would look like for Russia going up against hundreds of cruise missiles, SEAD/DEAD aircraft, EW aircraft and stealth fighters and bombers all targeting IADS, COM and airbases at the same time under high-tech conditions with US/NATO having full control of SA and battlespace picture.
It doesn't look pretty now with Russia not being able to get air superiority over the frontlines just across its border to help its ground forces it would likely look like the end of the world to them if they were on the receiving end of such attack.
You may laugh away to help you cope but deep down in your subconscious you know Russian forces wouldn't be able to fend off such an overwhelming attack. They can't stop Ukraine tossing a few scalps from getting through... I mean come on dudes lets face reality here.
The problem with your assumption is that Russia itself can manufacture more cruise missiles than the combined West. And you can pretty much bet that in case of such a conflict China would be providing Russia with satellite intel.
The S-400 was never designed to intercept slow and low flying targets to begin with. The S-400 battery is supposed to be itself protected by other more suitable air defense systems to guard against such threats. This means the Pantsir. In theory you can also use the MiG-31 to intercept cruise missiles. But in the case of the MiG-31 this is more meant to be used against air launched cruise missiles released from strategic bombers at long distances.
 
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blackjack21

Junior Member
Registered Member
If Ukraine, with little to no air force, can lob a small number of stormshadows giving Russian s300/s400 a nightmarish time I wonder what it would look like for Russia going up against hundreds of cruise missiles, SEAD/DEAD aircraft, EW aircraft and stealth fighters and bombers all targeting IADS, COM and airbases at the same time under high-tech conditions with US/NATO having full control of SA and battlespace picture.

It doesn't look pretty now with Russia not being able to get air superiority over the frontlines just across its border to help its ground forces it would likely look like the end of the world to them if they were on the receiving end of such attack.

You may laugh away to help you cope but deep down in your subconscious you know Russian forces wouldn't be able to fend off such an overwhelming attack. They can't stop Ukraine tossing a few scalps from getting through... I mean come on dudes lets face reality here.
that shit looks unclear as hell if that is crimea or even if there are s-400s present in that video. take Ukrainian sources with a grain of salt since Zelensky reported today that 31,000 Ukrainians died and that there are over 500,000 Russian casualties from kyiv independent. I dont know if that 31,000 figure is correct though since every military tactic that has happened was Ukrainians getting encircled and they have female soldiers and mentally disabled people fighting in the war now.
 

SlothmanAllen

Junior Member
Registered Member
The problem with your assumption is that Russia itself can manufacture more cruise missiles than the combined West. And you can pretty much bet that in case of such a conflict China would be providing Russia with satellite intel.
The S-400 was never designed to intercept slow and low flying targets to begin with. The S-400 battery is supposed to be itself protected by other more suitable air defense systems to guard against such threats. This means the Pantsir. In theory you can also use the MiG-31 to intercept cruise missiles. But in the case of the MiG-31 this is more meant to be used against air launched cruise missiles released from strategic bombers at long distances.

Do you have any good estimates for what Russian missiles are getting produced per month?

EDIT: I should clarify that on Twitter I have seen estimates for ~700-800 kh-101 and Kalibr missile combined per year as mid/late 2023.

LRASM/JASSM should be hitting over 1000 per year in 2024 if my memory serves me right. I know they want to increase production six fold for the Tomahawk, but I don't have a concrete number to go with that.
 
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