The War in the Ukraine

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Just remember US had to go thousands of miles to fight unlike Russia where their war is literally across their border giving this supposed superpower unparallel advantaged in logistics, air superiority, land superiority, ISR superiority, numbers superiority and naval superiority.
So what? The US had months of time to position equipment and personnel to attack Iraq. An Iraq which was under UN sanctions. Russia had no such luxury because if they tried to do that, then the West would just have sent more equipment into Ukraine sooner. Ukraine would have mobilized all its NATO trained troops before they even went in. And we know how well the US way of conquering Iraq under GWB and the neocons worked. Where they ended up with a long insurgency, and a government which does not want them there.

Even I bought the lie that Russia was a conventional military superpower and would run over Ukraine in less than a month.
If the Russians meant to conquer the whole of Ukraine to begin with they wouldn't have gone in with 150,000 troops. And they wouldn't have delayed mass mobilization like they did.

This war has exposed Russian military for the frauds they are and forget the US Russia wouldn't last a month in a full scale conventional war against Poland.
Try reading about how many troops and equipment Poland has, versus how much Ukraine had. Emphasis on past tense.

Russians better hope Ukraine doesn't get any sort of advantaged when it comes to contesting their airspace when they get their F-16's. They contest their frontline airspace currently with no air force it could only get much better with F-16's carrying Harm receiving pod, EW-pod and of course Harm missiles.
HARM has been useless. And by the time Ukraine gets F-16s, the Russians will be using Su-57s. Which means the massive overmatch that Russia already has won't be going away. Regardless of what version of the F-16 they send in.
 

Santamaria

Junior Member
Registered Member
Even I bought the lie that Russia was a conventional military superpower and would run over Ukraine in less than a month. This war has exposed Russian military for the frauds they are and forget the US Russia wouldn't last a month in a full scale conventional war against Poland. Russians better hope Ukraine doesn't get any sort of advantaged when it comes to contesting their airspace when they get their F-16's. They contest their frontline airspace currently with no air force it could only get much better with F-16's carrying Harm receiving pod, EW-pod and of course Harm missiles.
When I said I will not loose more time with you I meant it.

You are free to think that Poland or even Portugal could defeat Russia in one month. Or even in one day :)
 

Santamaria

Junior Member
Registered Member
Try reading about how many troops and equipment Poland has, versus how much Ukraine had. Emphasis on past tense.


HARM has been useless. And by the time Ukraine gets F-16s, the Russians will be using Su-57s. Which means the massive overmatch that Russia already has won't be going away. Regardless of what version of the F-16 they send in.
Ukraine will use the F16 mainly for use of air ground missiles, as it has use most of its aviation until it get destroyed.

They will be useful, they will get to destroy some valuable stuff, make Russians bleed and slow Russian victory but will not change outcome of the war at all.

I don’t think Russia will use the Su57, although for sure they will get some F16 kills from far away.
Russia will simply use the Su35 in combination with current air defences to shoot them down.

If the F16 get good intel it will manage to destroy some Su35, but Russia build 20 su35 per year. Some loses here and there (real loses, not the absurd exagerad numbers that Ukraine says) will not harm them.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I don’t think Russia will use the Su57, although for sure they will get some F16 kills from far away.
Russia will simply use the Su35 in combination with current air defences to shoot them down.
Russia is already using the Su-57. But of course they will continue to operate it behind their own lines so it won't get captured and its technology analyzed by the US to develop counters to it.

If the F16 get good intel it will manage to destroy some Su35, but Russia build 20 su35 per year. Some loses here and there (real loses, not the absurd exagerad numbers that Ukraine says) will not harm them.
The F-16s they claim they will be sending to Ukraine have little chance against the Su-35. Only the latest F-16s with AESA radar and AIM-120D have a chance against it. As for Su-35 production I expect it to wind down as more of the production lines are moved towards Su-57 production. The latest Su-35 order by the RuAF has likely been delivered. The line will likely continue producing aircraft for Iran but eventually it will just either close down or be moved elsewhere.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Ignorance is bliss. You know that is not how it went down but it's not surprising coming from you. SW Iraq was invaded called the "Left Hook" to take on Republican Guard forces north of Kuwait. Also 950k soldiers didn't take part in combat US sent 700k with 500k taking part in combat the 950k is the whole number that was deployed by the allies to the region.

Lol. Russia couldn't hold Ukrainian land it took the first two weeks of the war from pretty much a peasant Ukrainian army with the only "modern" western equipment being Javelins and stingers. VKS couldn't get air superiority over Ukraine which Ukraine had no air force and its IADS consisted of soviet era s300 and buks.
Why are people like you that is understandably pro-Ukraine keeps on this fictional narrative that Ukrainian military pre-Russian invasion was a "peasant Army" when one can simply looked into the legacy of Soviet equipment, Soviet training, Soviet infrastructure and industries that were left over in that country. Not to mention the additional training provided by U.S. led NATO that definitely added to the lethality of the already formidable Ukrainian military.

If by chance you served in the military and or is well versed in military strategy the amount of Russian initial invasion was hardly sufficient to defeat, sustain, occupy the objective it supposedly set out to accomplish. Part of that was due to HUBRIS and arrogant assumption that maybe Ukrainians would welcome them with hugs and kisses, not bombs, bullets, rockets and NATO resolve to defeat them not just on the operational level but also at the strategic level.

Your talk on the infamous "LEFT HOOK" that was championed by the now deceased Gen. Norman "fighting" Schwarzkopf and his team (Gen. Franks Jr. provided a key role in terms of planning and executing the strategy) and as you correctly pointed out the American number of forces utilize in that conflict was close to 700,000 whereas the initial Russian "invasion" troops used in Ukraine was WOEFULLY UNDERMANNED at an approximate 180,000 to 190,000 that was used in Ukraine, a country who's size and mass that's approx. 1.38 bigger than Iraq. Furthermore, Ukraine Air Force DID AND DOES EXIST albeit it's size were modest and not exactly at the level of Russian Air Force, but don't make up lies that Ukraine had no Air Force.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Please list the equipment the west gave to Ukraine that they used to force the Russians to retreat.


Iraqi army was battle harden the only reason why the land forces ran over them was because the US launched a one moth air campaign demoralizing Iraqi ground forces which Russia should have done.

Just remember US had to go thousands of miles to fight unlike Russia where their war is literally across their border giving this supposed superpower unparallel advantaged in logistics, air superiority, land superiority, ISR superiority, numbers superiority and naval superiority.

Even I bought the lie that Russia was a conventional military superpower and would run over Ukraine in less than a month. This war has exposed Russian military for the frauds they are and forget the US Russia wouldn't last a month in a full scale conventional war against Poland. Russians better hope Ukraine doesn't get any sort of advantaged when it comes to contesting their airspace when they get their F-16's. They contest their frontline airspace currently with no air force it could only get much better with F-16's carrying Harm receiving pod, EW-pod and of course Harm missiles.
Are you this delusional? How many F-16 will Ukraine receive and fully utilize to make Russia capitulate or even lose the war? I would have been with your opinion if Ukraine were not only to receive hundreds upon hundreds of the U.S. F-16 along with the training of competent pilots because that would really provide not just the qualitative advantage against Russian Air Force but also the quantitative necessity it'll have over the Russians. But a mere dozen or however less Ukraine is going to get is not going to make the operational and strategic objectives you assume it'll accomplish.

We're talking about REALITY man, this is not some Rambo, Top Gun ssssh were a few super soldiers along with their super duper weapons can defeat an entire military on its own.

It seems to me that your opinion of Russia pre-invasion was pretty sanguine, if not quite high based off on your response. And that your vitriol towards them doesn't necessarily stem from your belief in human rights fairytale but actually for being let down by what you thought was a Russian bear, it turned out to be Winnie the pooh.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
M109 hunted down and destroyed by Lancet.

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Soldiers from the 1st Slavyansk Brigade collect the trophies from the Avdiivka coke plant, including ammunition, weapons and Starlink antenna.

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Captured M1064A3 US self propelled mortar with a Soviet 120mm 2B11 mortar.

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Russian flag is raised over Lastochkino.

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Ukrainian tank hit by a Lancet.

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Another AFU S-300 system gets knocked down by Tornado-S. Another channel says it's Patriot however.

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Hit on Kherson region allegedly took out more than 30 Ukrainian soldiers and four vehicles.

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Russians enter the center of Rabotino. Latest news is that Rabotino has been allegedly captured. I don't see much resistance from the Ukrainians, drones, artillery and such. IMO the front has collapsed and the Ukrainians have retreated all across the Rabotino Verbove salient.

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Baba Yaga taken down by sniper code named Beau. Apparently this wasn't his first Baba Yaga shootdown.

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Another UAV shootdown by small arms fire with thermal sights. The UAV is from the AFU's 47th Mechanized Brigade, this in Avdeyevka.

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AFU attacked a restaurant in Donetsk with HIMARS where a wedding was taking place. No one died with one person injured. Miraculously.

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Strela-10 destroyed by Lancet. Another AFU AD system taken out.

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Polish farmers damaging Ukrainian trains carrying grain.

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AFU UAV deployment point lased by Orlan to be hit by Krasnopol. Footage censored a moment before strike.

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An AFU EW unit gets drone dropped. Obviously not working. No visible human casualties.

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An American volunteer in the Pyatnashka unit. Has more than 10 years in Afghanistan and came to Donbass to fight with the Russians. Unit has notable action in the Avdeyevka campaign.

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Russian D-20 howitzer hits a Ukrainian 2B14 mortar position. The ammunition went off.

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Air strike on Berislav, Kherson.

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An AFU vehicle burns after being hit by artillery from the 70th Regiment.

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Last edited:

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
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24 Feb
Collapse of Operation Citadel 2.0

Konstantin Sivkov

Vice President of the Russian Academy of Missile and Artillery Sciences for Information Policy, Doctor of Military Sciences

The goals of the Ukrainian army’s offensive in the summer of 2023 and the size of combat groups formed to carry it out are to a certain extent comparable with what the German military fielded for its Operation Citadel in 1943. This gives us the grounds for calling Kiev’s offensive in the summer of 2023 Operation Citadel 2.0.

Considering its military-political consequences, the collapse of Citadel 2.0 meant not simply the Ukrainian army’s military-strategic defeat but also the collapse of the consolidated West’s hybrid blitzkrieg.
...
For this operation, the enemy created a formidable grouping of forces, which numbered almost 160,000 personnel (110 battalions), 2,100 tanks and other armored vehicles, 960 field artillery guns and 114 aircraft. Such an amount of artillery helped create a fire density of up to 10 guns per km of the frontline in the directions of the main attack. The Ukrainian military set up substantial stocks of ammunition: over 500,000 155mm shells, more than 150,000 shells of other calibers, 560,000 mortar rounds and 50 Storm Shadow long-range precision cruise missiles. This density of the Ukrainian army’s artillery and ammunition stocks enabled it to carry out as many as 190 firing missions daily.
...
The Ukrainian army’s strike force should be compared with combat groups and capabilities that took part in battles recorded in world history to have an idea about its scope. In this regard, it will be interesting to compare it with the battlegroup that Nazi Germany’s Wehrmacht deployed against the Soviet Army in its Operation Citadel in the Battle of Kursk in the summer of 1943. According to German data (Mueller-Hillebrand, German Army. 1933-1945), two strike forces had a total strength of about 780,000 personnel, 2,540 tanks and self-propelled artillery systems (with extra 218 weapons under repairs), about 10,000 field guns and over 2,000 aircraft at that time.
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Russian troops built two, and in the most important directions, three defensive lines, with reserves attached to vast expanses in front of the first basic positions in the tactical zone of defense with sentries and minefields. Along the entire frontline, Russian forces equipped over 3,000 platoon strongholds, 45,000 dugouts and more than 150,000 shelters for equipment. They built about 2,000 km of anti-tank ditches and laid over 7,000 km of minefields, planting about 5 million mines. The minefields were twice as deep as required by the regulations, reaching 600 meters in depth. All this huge amount of work was carried out by military builders, engineer and railway troops. Civilian organizations also assisted Russian troops. The state company Avtodor and specialists from Moscow, the Moscow Region, Crimea and other Russian regions rendered considerable assistance in equipping defense areas.

Such a powerful system of engineered structures and fortifications helped create sustainable defense, even though the enemy enjoyed superiority over the defending troops by 1.5 times in terms of manpower, 1.2 times in terms of armor and 1.3 times in terms of artillery in major attack directions.

Aside from the troops in defense, the Russian military command set up considerable reserves intended to bolster the defending forces and launch counterattacks. The reserves comprised two full-fledged armies that had a total numerical strength of about 60,000 personnel and over 8,600 combat and special vehicles, including 980 tanks and other armored vehicles, and also more than 2,200 various motor vehicles. Considerable forces of army, operational-tactical, long-range and even strategic aviation provided support for the Russian troops.
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The Russian Army also set up a sufficient stock of ammunition for high-intensity battles for a long period, including UAVs of various designation whose total number was as large as 10,000, judging by the intensity of their use reported from open sources.
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The Ukrainian army began its offensive on June 4, 2023 by delivering a massive artillery strike and subsequently committing a considerable number of mechanized troops with heavy armor to action, in particular, units operating powerful Western-made tanks delivered to Ukraine, particularly, Leopard 2A6 tanks, and also US-made Bradley infantry fighting vehicles. In this regard, the Ukrainian military repeated the Wehrmacht’s actions of July 5, 1943.
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The enemy’s armored units advancing in the main direction initially suffered losses from strikes by Russian crews of anti-tank missile systems deployed at forward positions and helicopters. In this defense, Russian Kornet anti-tank missile systems demonstrated their capability effectively to strike Western Leopard 2A6 newest and well-armored tanks. After that, the Ukrainian military encountered minefields and had to move in a long column behind minesweepers. After the enemy’s forward armored vehicles were struck, the columns had to stop, search for a detour and try to retreat. Russian troops delivered artillery strikes on the enemy’s armor concentrated on limited terrain outside the cover of the Ukrainian army’s already thinned-out air defenses while army aircraft carried out sorties to destroy it by anti-tank missiles, and attack aircraft and unmanned aerial vehicles also operated effectively. As a result, the enemy sustained heavy casualties. Nonetheless, it continued its attempts to break through the Russian defenses by armored fists for two more weeks.
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The Ukrainian army’s losses over the period of its offensive turned out to be huge and considerably exceeded the initial strength of the attack force that was replenished during battles by ill-trained personnel and far from the best combat hardware from reserves of the rear. The Ukrainian grouping’s losses amounted to 166,000 personnel or 25% above its initial strength, 789 tanks and 2,400 other armored vehicles or more than 50% above the initial amount, 132 aircraft or 15% more than what the Ukrainian military had by the time of its offensive.
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We should note that in repelling the Ukrainian army’s offensive in the summer of 2023, the Russian Army actively employed various types of UAVs, considerably outnumbering the enemy’s unmanned aerial vehicles. Russian troops used 1,200 Lancet loitering munitions and 4,400 FPV drones alone in the battles.
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Ukraine and generally even the collective West suffered grave military and political consequences of the failure of Operation Citadel 2.0. The failure of the Ukrainian army’s offensive meant not only a strategic defeat of Kiev’s forces but also the collapse of the united West’s hybrid blitzkrieg when huge economic losses related to unprecedented sanctions and enormous deliveries of various armaments yielded no results. A trend for the West to lose its status as the ruler of the world’s destinies intensified. In turn, this triggered the process of reducing the Western civilization’s spheres of influence, considering that the BRICS association expanded to 11 countries and another 27 states applied for the organization’s membership.
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However, despite such a heavy defeat suffered by the Ukrainian military, the enemy is still strong enough. This is because it is the US-led united West rather than Ukraine with its armed forces that is Russia’s main enemy and Ukraine is just one of the fronts of the West’s hybrid war against Russia. The failure of the first hybrid blitzkrieg does not mean a cessation of the war against Russia. On the contrary, this implies expanding the aggression and beefing up the entire set of actions constituting hybrid warfare, including the opening of new fronts of the armed confrontation.

That is why, similar to how the Soviet Army had a long way to Berlin after winning the Battle of Kursk, today Russia still has to embrace a long struggle after Kiev’s botched Operation Citadel 2.0 until the Final Victory that it will certainly win. But it has already achieved the first and truly Big Victory.
 

blackjack21

Junior Member
Registered Member
Just remember US had to go thousands of miles to fight unlike Russia where their war is literally across their border giving this supposed superpower unparallel advantaged in logistics, air superiority, land superiority, ISR superiority, numbers superiority and naval superiority.

Even I bought the lie that Russia was a conventional military superpower and would run over Ukraine in less than a month. This war has exposed Russian military for the frauds they are and forget the US Russia wouldn't last a month in a full scale conventional war against Poland. Russians better hope Ukraine doesn't get any sort of advantaged when it comes to contesting their airspace when they get their F-16's. They contest their frontline airspace currently with no air force it could only get much better with F-16's carrying Harm receiving pod, EW-pod and of course Harm missiles.
-the tradeoff of more Russians dying than Ukrainians makes no sense because of a NAFO warfare doctrine is better than Soviet doctrine when the Ukrainians somehow constantly get themselves encircled and I think in warfare tactics 101 the side that gets encircled is the one with the higher casualties.

-Since Ukraine admitted that their last major offensive to get to Crimea was planned by NATO than I don't see how NATO warfare doctrine is better if they got nowhere for the 1st 90 days which pissed off the Ukrainians badly which makes it seem that the manpower and equipment had to be plenty to get to Crimea than having it all go wasted with the Russians back on the offensive again(making spending for Ukraine more pointless than it is already). and they have not announced any major offensives yet to get to Kiev.

-400,000 Russians dying over their claim of 40,000 makes no sense either because some visible protests would have been captured on social media and those kinds of losses would make white vans roam russia than ukraine to find bodies than Russians lining up to the mobilization center.

-Will to fight is another important factor and the reason why there are so many polish and Georgian mercenaries is because they had some beef with Russia historically. Most western volunteers that lived a happy more sheltered life than the east side have immediately left I dont think any foreigner wants to fight for Ukraine as much as the Ukrainians themselves. Russians have been taught in history that the world is out to get them and the meaning of sacrifice throughout their history. They also see Ukraine as part of their historic territory.

-Zaluzhnyi stated he would have preferred T-64s over sophisticated shit like Leopard 2s, their latest game changers are fucking glide bombs launched in high altitudes for easy interceptions. I don't even think F-35s would help with constant issues like self-ejecting a pilot and higher risk against russian krasukha and Murmansk-bm jammers in the battlefield. Meanwhile the Russians complained about the T-14 engines which the company stopped the production for the T-14 to resolve those issues and put them back in the operation zone. Different sniper rifle companies working on better optics and accuracy for the Russians, more jammer equipment for troops to deal with drones, etc. Also the Zircon is a more sophisticated missile for being a scramjet over a BM like Trident that failed to launch.

If we are going on a hypothetical NATO army against a Russian army I don't think they would do much better than the Ukrainians who just have more of a reason to fight the war than them because they will still be backed by incompetent military planning and companies backing them.
 
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