The War in the Ukraine

Santamaria

Junior Member
Registered Member
How soon is soon? And how many will be produced, say, per year or 2 years? These aircraft are priority targets for any enemy and they WILL shoot down several of them with some help from western ISR and the usual Russian negligence. They need to be available in sufficient numbers ASAP and with solid production backing them up to quickly replenish losses.
The real question is how many has really been shot down.

Now Ukraine claim that this one was a A50, maybe yes, probably not.
They also claim to shoot another weeks ago again without proofs.

Im 2022 they claimed to destroy one in an airport in Belarus that finally had minor damages.

I think Russia had from 10 to 20 at the beginning of the conflict although numbers are blurry.

They are not nowhere close to have a dramatic lost.

This is classical Ukranian strategy to exaggerate everything to try to make seem that they are on the edge to win. Therefore just give me some more money, weapons and so on.

About the A100 there are 2 existing ones. So the plane is ready, why it didn’t enter serial production is difficult to know
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Lancet takes out an M109 courtesy of the VDV in the Artemovosk region.

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Glide FAB attacks on villages west of Avdeyevka.

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Ukrainian BMP-2 destroyed by reconnaissance elements of the 132nd Guards MR Brigade.

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X-35 missile destroys Ukrainian P-18 radar in the village of Vladimorovka in the Dnipropetrovsk region. Should be noted that this is an antiship missile.

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Air strikes on the right bank of the Dniepr, Kachkarovka village, Kherson region.

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Krasnopol takes out a Ukrainian shelter.

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MLRS strikes arrive in Chasiv Yar.

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LMUR strike on a Ukrainian shelter in Malinovka.

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More air strikes in the right side of the Dniepr, this time at Tomina Balka, Kherson.

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MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
How soon is soon? And how many will be produced, say, per year or 2 years? These aircraft are priority targets for any enemy and they WILL shoot down several of them with some help from western ISR and the usual Russian negligence. They need to be available in sufficient numbers ASAP and with solid production backing them up to quickly replenish losses.

Soviet Union and United States used AWACS differently. The impact that is given to those A-50 shootdowns is also misunderstood because most analysts commenting on it attribute the same role to Russian AWACS as they have in US air doctrine.

US is a maritime power with offshore power projection and therefore has consistently depended on AWACS as the primary form of command and control for aerial operations since 1970s both for USAF and USN. USSR was a land power with very limited offshore power projection which relied on extensive ground-based command network and integrated GBAD early warning radars into the system.

United States built 68 E-3 of which some were export sales but USN also used approximately 100 E-2s. All AWACS systems built by US sum to over 600 planes including over 300 E-2s and over 200 EC-131s.

Soviet Union built 12 Tu-126 AEW aircraft between 1965 and 1984 and used them in areas where ground-based networks didn't provide sufficient coverage. Then in the 1980s after studying American use of AWACS it developed the A-50 which was introduced in 1985 but only 40 were built by 1991 and proper
tactics were never developed.

The US uses AWACS to perform the entirety of air control including massing air assets within own airspace. US air doctrine relies on large-scale simultaneous operations which are characteristic of a maritime mindset. Soviet doctrine is very strongly informed by land operations so it uses its airspace in the same manner. Soviet doctrine uses strategic depth, dispersion of bases and assets and enduring operations to a much greater degree because Soviet doctrine relied on preemption i.e. whenever NATO attack was considered imminent WarPact would pre-empt it. To that effect WarPact retained greater nominal readiness of its forces on the European front and in Germany in particular.

That also had a technological rationale - early radars weren't very efficient and the computing power available was very limited if it had to be carried in the air. US used AWACS for logistical and doctrinal reasons. USSR didn't need it so they relied on a solution which was more practical. It wasn't until the 1980s that technology advanced enough that AWACS became a new type of tactical asset - not only due to better capabilities of AWACS radars but also because they could finally direct BVR engagements because missiles began to be more effective at longer ranges. USSR built A-50s not for MiG-23s and 25s but for Su-27s. Note that MiG-31 has its own unique mini-AWACS role that it fulfilled with the help of ground-based control stations.

All this has inevitable consequences to Russian air doctrine since Russia inherited Soviet systems and institutional knowledge and then was frozen in development for 20 years due to lack of funds.

Russia doesn't use AWACS as mobile command posts but as mobile radars with extreme elevation or gap-fillers, very much how USSR used Tu-126 early on. Their purpose is to see beyond curvature of Earth and terrain obstacles and to support VKS planes with early warning information.

A-50s can't do more, because they are very outdated systems with radars of the same architecture as E-3 but with slightly lower performance. A-50U does not upgrade the radar antenna only replaced analogue systems in the computing units with modern digital systems. The main purpose of A-50U program was to extend the life of the aircraft and to improve upgradeability of the interface.

The reason why Russia maintained so few A-50s - between 9 and 12 depending on reports - was because they didn't have a doctrinal solution for more so there was no reason to commit resources. The best evidence for that is the enduring lack of aerial refueling aircraft. Without refuelers no long-duration air mission is possible so no long-duration aerial AEW and C2 capability is necessary. If Russia doesn't plan to acquire more aerial refuelers then it definitely doesn't need more AWACS. MiG-31 already introduced the mini-AWACS role and e.g. Su-35S or Su-30SM2 can be directed by ground control to illuminate an area where long-range early warning ground radars see missiles incoming at low altitude.

Furthermore RUSI wrote in their report on aerial operations in Ukraine that AFU claimed that they were able to reliably disrupt and jam A-50s operating over Donbas for majority of the war and viewed the ground-based early waring radars, especially those capable of detecting low altitude targets, as a greater threat.

The shootdowns are effective as a psychological attack and they do limit the situational awareness of Russian air force but not to the extent that it can't perform its basic missions. That is unaffected by lack of AWACS because VKS functioned for the entire two years of war without AWACS support over the majority of the front. This doesn't mean that VKS will have the same capabilities as if they had fully capable AWACS because that's physically impossible but they will not be nearly as hindered as many uninformed analysts claim. The thing that hinders VKS most is doctrine, structure and command system not lack of AWACS.

A loss of A-100 would be more painful but so far there are only 2 of them in service, and the first flight with a radar active took place in 2022 so Russia hasn't had the time to learn how to use them properly and likely would default to the same role as A-50U, only with better radar.

Also one of the main roles of AWACS is to control friendly aircraft flying with their radars turned off. This way the air mission can assemble the numbers at a safe distance and avoid detection by enemy ELINT systems. 450km is 30 minutes of flight time at 0,7Ma so once the full tactical element is assembled and ready for attack the enemy defenses have only 30 minutes to respond with sufficient force. The usual minimum time of reaction threshold for fighters is 10-15 minutes but for a large formation the number of aircraft in readiness may not be sufficient. If enemy doesn't have radars capable of detecting fighters at low-mid altitudes beyond 200km then the reaction time is limited to 15 minutes which makes full surprise achievable for OCA missions - attacks on airfields and C2 stations.

This is the main reason why AWACS is valuable, but there is little use for it for Russia since they lack aerial refueling so time for assembling of strike formation would be very limited and no large force could be used for missions.

Russians are not waging their air war this way. They are not even replicating Soviet doctrine. They are fundamentally defensive force sitting behind fortified defense zones guarded by S-400/S-300 and striking from a distance even against a country without an air force like Ukraine.You train as you fight and fight as you train and since Russia never intended to fight a 2+ year war against Ukraine it never prepared for it. This is why their offensive operations were so lackluster and had such questionable results despite the number of aircraft indicating that they could attempt to replicate Desert Storm.

That too was western analysts projecting their superficial understanding of Desert Storm at their lack of understanding of the Russian air doctrine which was two errors on top of each other.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
The M1150 is said to be lost behind Ukrainian positions in Lastochyne before the village fell. So is it mine clearing behind Ukrainian lines?


The weapon is not as publicized as the others, but it is said the Zemledeliye or Agriculture remote mining system may have been used in Avdeyevka, and the M1150 sent to clear what these machines laid.



During the campaign as the pincer around the city began to close in, the mine layer would have been laying mines behind the Ukrainian front lines and at the supply routes. Reinforcements and resupply would have ran into the mines, probably why the 3rd Azov Brigade refused to enter the city, and the lack of both resupply and reinforcement would have dominoed on the morale and spirit of the Ukrainians within the city. The circumstances would have been as worst as the Ukrainians retreated on foot from the city, as they would be certain to end up as human mine clearance passing through these fields. This is one reason why losses are so horrific during the retreat.

The Ukrainians were determined to hold Lastochyne, concentrating their elite 3rd Azov with the 47th Mechanized on the village, which so far has managed to slow down and repulse the Russian assault.

The Zemledeliyes would have laid mines on the supply route to Lastochyne, cutting the village defenders off. These machines wouldn't not just put remotely activated antipersonnel mines but similar antitank mines too.


In order to desperately clear the route, the M1150 was sent in. Unfortunately, it became a victim of a mine. Reinforcements and resupply impossible, the Ukrainians have to abandon the settlement.

Or so this is basically what I think happened.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
How soon is soon? And how many will be produced, say, per year or 2 years? These aircraft are priority targets for any enemy and they WILL shoot down several of them with some help from western ISR and the usual Russian negligence. They need to be available in sufficient numbers ASAP and with solid production backing them up to quickly replenish losses.
The A-100 is to be based on the Il-76MD-90A airframe. Of which six were produced in 2023. It hasn't entered production yet because the radar and airborne command post is still under development. But you should expect one to be built a year once it passes trials.

The A-100LL flying laboratory first flew in 2016. This is basically an A-50 modified to carry the new radar and electronics. The first A-100 built using a whole new aircraft chassis first flew in 2022. It is expected to be certified in 2024. And then production will start.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
How soon is soon? And how many will be produced, say, per year or 2 years? These aircraft are priority targets for any enemy and they WILL shoot down several of them with some help from western ISR and the usual Russian negligence. They need to be available in sufficient numbers ASAP and with solid production backing them up to quickly replenish losses.
The real question is how many has really been shot down.

Now Ukraine claim that this one was a A50, maybe yes, probably not.
They also claim to shoot another weeks ago again without proofs.

Im 2022 they claimed to destroy one in an airport in Belarus that finally had minor damages.

I think Russia had from 10 to 20 at the beginning of the conflict although numbers are blurry.

They are not nowhere close to have a dramatic lost.

This is classical Ukranian strategy to exaggerate everything to try to make seem that they are on the edge to win. Therefore just give me some more money, weapons and so on.

About the A100 there are 2 existing ones. So the plane is ready, why it didn’t enter serial production is difficult to know

Here goes one of my very rare appearances on this thread.

It's one thing to have them. It's another to be able to operate them effectively.

Given what's supposed to be "Operation Desert Storm on the steppe" - The VKS's performance in the war from the very 1st day until today is way underperforming for its supposed and proclaimed size and prowess. And this extends way beyond AEW&C and fighters.

But perhaps it's just like what @MarKoz81 said - The VKS simply isn't built to fight offensively on a massive, attritional scale of aerial warfare.
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Perhaps you should compare the land area of Kuwait vs the area of operations in Ukraine. And you should compare the size of forces the US coalition was employing vs what the Russians are employing.

Kuwait has a land area of 17,818 sq km. That is smaller than Crimea at 27,000 sq km.
That US coalition invaded with 950,000 soldiers and had overmatch with Iraq at 600,000 inside Kuwait.
Russia even today has only 300,000 soldiers inside Ukraine versus like 800,000 Ukrainian soldiers.
When they invaded the Russians had like half that amount.

Ukraine is 603,628 sq km. Heck Donbass alone is 53,201 sq km.

Iraq didn't have the G7 basically funding their whole economy to ensure more people could fight. In fact they had basically no one supporting them.

Russia has already taken an area multiple times that of Kuwait.
 
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Santamaria

Junior Member
Registered Member
Given what's supposed to be "Operation Desert Storm on the steppe"
Are you really comparing the ukranian war with the iraquí war. Ukraine with Iraq? Really?

Really??

This has to be a joke.

Please inform us about the number of air defences of the Iraq, integrated with the best technology into a network of integrated air defences.
Also inform us about which equivalent to Five Eyes where providing their intel to Iraq. About which equivalent of NATO was providing its ISR to Iraq.
Was Russia/China flying AEW aircraft over Iran non stop and providing the results to Iraq?
 
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