The War in the Ukraine

james smith esq

Senior Member
Registered Member
Has PARP ever done anything?

Russian Air Force has won every air to air engagement and has been dropping 1000 kg bombs on Ukrainian positions while Ukrainian strikes on Russia have been sporadic with 50 kg payloads.
And, how’s that translating into success in that offensive in Adviivka? What tactical advantage did it confer upon the outcome in Vulhedar?

And, btw, has an anti-ship ballistic missile ever done anything?

Imitative vs innovative intelligence. Only imitators’ present and future actions depend, only, on what’s been accomplished, previously!
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
PARP (Persistent Anti-Radiation Platform)? For SEAD? For DEAD?
Why, again, is is that Russia’s Air Force has not been a decisive factor, either tactically or strategically?
An inability to accomplish either SEAD or DEAD?
Given the wars the Russians were fighting they put that set of capabilities in the backburner. But it is not like they have not done anything. They did the A-50U upgrade, built the Tu-214R, and upgraded the Kh-31 so it can outrange the Patriot. They also have the Khibiny ECM. What is lacking is the Su-34M upgrade with the electronics warfare pod. They also lack orbital reconnaissance assets so they can have more continuous observation of the battlefield.

What you are talking about though, achieving air superiority over the whole of Ukraine, that is not the Russian doctrine anyway. The Russian Air Force is supposed to act to provide support to the army by guaranteeing air superiority in the area of operations. So that the army won't be attacked by enemy aviation. Not go on long wild goose missions in the middle of enemy territory. The Soviets learned the hard way not to do that when they bombed Berlin and the Romanian air fields with long range bombers with terrible aviation losses back in WW2. So they simply do not do it anymore.

It is also easy to talk when the US hasn't faced an air defense network with these capabilities at least since Vietnam. And we know how well the USAF fared against the air defenses in North Vietnam back then.

And, production, specifically of newly developed platforms, is, precisely, one of the systems that is ossified!
The Russians built a whole new factory to increase production of the Lancet. And the results are already quite visible in the battlefield.
They are supposed to put another two factories into operation to build more Lancets soon. They already bought the buildings.

As for, Nagorno-Karabakh, did this switch to the Tor materially affect either the military, or political, outcome?
Like I said, they didn't have the Tor. As for the outcome of Nagorno-Karabakh, considering they were facing the Azeri army which has massive oil & gas revenues behind it, plus Turkey and Israel providing military equipment and even mercenaries, at the same time that Armenia won't even officially recognize the independence of Nagorno-Karabakh, let alone help them, what do they want Russia to do really? Armenia won't help the Armenians right next door. And Russia is supposed to do this. Well they have better things to do. They are lucky that Russia even sent peacekeepers.

And, the Su-57(22+35) was “tested” in Syria, too! How’s that figuring into operational capabilities?
It is being used to evaluate its performance. The Su-57 wasn't considered to be of decisive importance to put into production. The Russians have thus far managed to maintain air superiority over the front with the Su-35. And the Ukrainians are scarcely able to shoot the Su-35 down. The Russian MoD would rather wait until the Su-57M and the Izd. 30 engine are available to do serial production in large numbers.

And, how’s about that Armata? That’s been a resounding production success, and battlefield game-changer, huh?
And what about the Future Combat Systems, the Ground Combat Vehicle, or the other several programs the US has had to replace the Abrams which were all a failure without even producing viable working full prototypes? What about those uh? At least the Russians did a small production run of the T-14 Armata for test purposes. Which is more than what the US achieved with a much larger budget. The US has spent over $32 billion USD on such programs with little to show for it.

The Russian MoD won't accept the Armata platform into production until its deficiencies aren't solved. And these include the lack of reliability of the engine, bugs in the electronics package, and the high total price of producing one.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
And, how’s that translating into success in that offensive in Adviivka? What tactical advantage did it confer upon the outcome in Vulhedar?

And, btw, has an anti-ship ballistic missile ever done anything?

Imitative vs innovative intelligence. Only imitators’ present and future actions depend, only, on what’s been accomplished, previously!
Vulhedar has been completely incinerated multiple times. Just look at an air or satellite image of it. It is a burnt out ruin surrounded by blackened mud.

15ukraine-briefing-vuhlehar-gtmv-videoSixteenByNine3000.jpg


A military that places more emphasis on preserving forces would've abandoned Vulhedar already rather than continue to reinforce it. US abandoned Manila in WW2 because it was untenable to continue fighting there, they didn't keep sending the marines into an IJA meatgrinder.
 

james smith esq

Senior Member
Registered Member
Given the wars the Russians were fighting they put that set of capabilities in the backburner. But it is not like they have not done anything. They did the A-50U upgrade, built the Tu-214R, and upgraded the Kh-31 so it can outrange the Patriot. They also have the Khibiny ECM. What is lacking is the Su-34M upgrade with the electronics warfare pod. They also lack orbital reconnaissance assets so they can have more continuous observation of the battlefield.

What you are talking about though, achieving air superiority over the whole of Ukraine, that is not the Russian doctrine anyway. The Russian Air Force is supposed to act to provide support to the army by guaranteeing air superiority in the area of operations. So that the army won't be attacked by enemy aviation. Not go on long wild goose missions in the middle of enemy territory. The Soviets learned the hard way not to do that when they bombed Berlin and the Romanian air fields with long range bombers with terrible aviation losses back in WW2. So they simply do not do it anymore.

It is also easy to talk when the US hasn't faced an air defense network with these capabilities at least since Vietnam. And we know how well the USAF fared against the air defenses in North Vietnam back then.


The Russians built a whole new factory to increase production of the Lancet. And the results are already quite visible in the battlefield.
They are supposed to put another two factories into operation to build more Lancets soon. They already bought the buildings.


Like I said, they didn't have the Tor. As for the outcome of Nagorno-Karabakh, considering they were facing the Azeri army which has massive oil & gas revenues behind it, plus Turkey and Israel providing military equipment and even mercenaries, at the same time that Armenia won't even officially recognize the independence of Nagorno-Karabakh, let alone help them, what do they want Russia to do really? Armenia won't help the Armenians right next door. And Russia is supposed to do this. Well they have better things to do. They are lucky that Russia even sent peacekeepers.


It is being used to evaluate its performance. The Su-57 wasn't considered to be of decisive importance to put into production. The Russians have thus far managed to maintain air superiority over the front with the Su-35. And the Ukrainians are scarcely able to shoot the Su-35 down. The Russian MoD would rather wait until the Su-57M and the Izd. 30 engine are available to do serial production in large numbers.


And what about the Future Combat Systems, the Ground Combat Vehicle, or the other several programs the US has had to replace the Abrams which were all a failure without even producing viable working full prototypes? What about those uh? At least the Russians did a small production run of the T-14 Armata for test purposes. Which is more than what the US achieved with a much larger budget. The US has spent over $32 billion USD on such programs with little to show for it.

The Russian MoD won't accept the Armata platform into production until its deficiencies aren't solved. And these include the lack of reliability of the engine, bugs in the electronics package, and the high total price of producing one.
Who gives a shit about the U. S.? They’ve extracted themselves from their short-sighted losing quagmires (tho’ they might be volunteering for another one, real-soon); Russia’s mud-deep in theirs right-now!

What I’m talking about is the ability to neutralize the primary weapons that impede their success, i. e., Ukrainian artillery (including rockets), and tactical air-defenses.

Face the fact, Russia is the new India. All good developments are always in the future of the future!
 
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james smith esq

Senior Member
Registered Member
Vulhedar has been completely incinerated multiple times. Just look at an air or satellite image of it. It is a burnt out ruin surrounded by blackened mud.

15ukraine-briefing-vuhlehar-gtmv-videoSixteenByNine3000.jpg


A military that places more emphasis on preserving forces would've abandoned Vulhedar already rather than continue to reinforce it. US abandoned Manila in WW2 because it was untenable to continue fighting there, they didn't keep sending the marines into an IJA meatgrinder.
So is Bakhmut (utterly destroyed)); doesn’t change the fact that many lives and much materiel were wasted using WWI tactics to either attempt or achieve gaining ground that could’ve been more economically accomplished by the effective use of tactical bombing, simply to suppress artillery fire.

So, why did Russia, if it “places more emphasis on preserving forces”, persist in pursuing such a costly failure; “a burnt out ruin, surrounded by blackened mud”?
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
So is Bakhmut (utterly destroyed)); doesn’t change the fact that many lives and much materiel were wasted using WWI tactics to either attempt or achieve gaining ground that could’ve been more economically accomplished by the effective use of tactical bombing, simply to suppress artillery fire.

So, why did Russia, if it “places more emphasis on preserving forces”, persist in pursuing such a costly failure; “a burnt out ruin, surrounded by blackened mud”?
They made a mistake thinking the Ukrainians would give up after being bombed so much and now it's a sunk cost.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Face the facts, Russia is the new India. All good developments are always in the future of the future!
The Russian fighter aircraft park is mostly less than a decade old. The remainder is like two decades old. In the case of the interceptors they were modernized with electronics upgrades. This is much better than most NATO countries including the US. The Russian Air Force has taken in hundreds of new aircraft over the past two decades. And this is visible in the Ukrainian conflict against Ukrainian airframes of the Soviet era. Russian sensors can severely outrange those in Ukrainian fighter aircraft, and their missiles can also outrange them, not to mention the radar guided missiles being fully fire and forget.

The truth is, in two years of conflict, the Ukrainians have zero reported air to air kills of Russian fighters with their MiG-29 and Su-27.
The Su-57 would make no difference as it cannot possibly do better than that.

Now you can argue about the lack of 5th generation aircraft. But that will also be solved eventually.

Russia won't be building fighters that won't be maintainable in the long run in the tens or hundreds like the US has been doing. That is for sure.

The F-22 is a failed program where due to lack of investment in aircraft upgrades and lack of production it will likely manage to be taken out of service sooner than the aircraft it was supposed to replace. The F-15.

As for the F-35 all fighters prior to Block 3 cannot be upgraded to that variant because the airframe is structurally weak and was only reinforced in later lots. So Block 1 & 2 are unable to meet the criteria of a g-limit of +9. Block 1&2 also lack ground attack capabilities. The Russians caught a similar structural issue in the Su-57 in the prototype stage and fixed it. All production Su-57 aircraft are capable of ground attacks from the start. That is the difference between running a regular program and using concurrency.

And now we have talks about how F-35 Block 3 aircraft won't able to be upgraded to Block 4. Because the older engine won't be able to power the electronics in it and it lacks cooling power.

I would say Russia's Air Force fighter procurement has proven itself as quite efficient thus far.

Where the Russian procurement has failed is in the fighter bomber part. While the Su-34 proved itself just fine in the Syrian conflict, it just isn't economically viable to use it as a frontline fighter bomber in non-permissive environments. The Su-25 is just plain obsolete. So these aircraft will quite likely be replaced with drones eventually. By the Sukhoi Hunter aka Okhotnik, Kronstadt Thunder aka Molnya, or one of other drones being worked on.

What I’m talking about is the ability to neutralize the primary weapons that impede their success, i. e., Ukrainian artillery (including rockets), and tactical air-defenses.
They are changing the software of the Tor and Pantsir to more reliably intercept large caliber rockets, and they have the Lancet to destroy the shorter ranged ones. More recent versions of the Lancet have proven themselves to work at depths of up to 80 km behind the lines. Which means they can hit even mid range air defenses and a lot of the long range artillery provided they can spot it. They modernized more Smerch systems to Tornado-S. They put the Coalition into serial production. The Ukrainians have even spotted the Coalition operating close to the frontline already.
 
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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Gerans hit another Ukrainian airfield, name too long to spell properly. The strike is the second in two days.

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More Geran strikes, this time in Uman.

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Drone from the Beaver detachment hits YPR-765.

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Ukrainian tank gets destroyed.

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Leopard 2A4 gets destroyed in the Rabotino area.

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Leopard 2A6 gets hit by an FPV drone from the Beaver unit. The hit occurred on the ammo bin.

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Ukrainians sent an FPV drone to take out the Russian flags on the waste heap.

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The waste heap had many dugouts and trenches the Ukrainians sheltered themselves but were forced out by Russian drones and mortars, scenes that were not acceptable for viewing.

Artillery from the 9th MR Brigade raining down on Ukrainian positions in Avdiivka after UAV spotting.

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Two Strykers knocked out by ATGMs from the 7th Division in the Orekhiv sector with help from the Osman special forces unit.

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Another Leopard knocked out by the Beavers.

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A 2S19 MSTA-S belonging to the AFU gets knocked out by 2S7M Malka of the RuAF.

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Russian FPV drone flies right into a Ukrainian hideout in Avdiivka.

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Ukrainian troops advancing along the trenches in Verbove gets hit by artillery after being observed by drones.

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The 123rd Brigade hitting Ukrainian positions and personnel with artillery at the Artemovosk sector.

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FPV drone hits an ammunition warehouse of the AFU.

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Lun-7 drone hits right into a Ukrainian trench in Bilohorivka.

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Sudoplatov Battalion takes out a Ukrainian tank with an FPV drone. A second detachment of the unit is now in Avdiivka, so I'm not sure if this is in Avdiivka or Verbove.

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D

Deleted member 24525

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So is Bakhmut (utterly destroyed)); doesn’t change the fact that many lives and much materiel were wasted using WWI tactics to either attempt or achieve gaining ground that could’ve been more economically accomplished by the effective use of tactical bombing, simply to suppress artillery fire.

So, why did Russia, if it “places more emphasis on preserving forces”, persist in pursuing such a costly failure; “a burnt out ruin, surrounded by blackened mud”?
Russian loses were basically untrained prison conscripts, whereas UA was forced to commit some of its best-trained units to defend the city. Devoting limited fighter aircraft against Ukraine's capable air defense is an unecessary risk in that context. Well-trained manpower is in short supply in Ukraine, and is the only thing that foreign countries cannot realistically provide it, so any loss of it is very costly. Russia's actions in Bakhmut in winter22/spring23 imposed significant losses on Ukraine's offensive capability going into the summer.
 
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