The War in the Ukraine

Maikeru

Captain
Registered Member
Not sure what the deal is here, maybe a tactical pause to take stock, regroup and resupply before resuming march on Moscow, under disguise of a settlement? Prigozhin is many things, mostly not nice things, but he's not a fool and must realise his life expectancy is severely limited if he doesn't succeed.
 

daifo

Captain
Registered Member
What exactly do you do with the hundreds or thousands of troops that decided to along go with the "failed" coup?
 

LawLeadsToPeace

Senior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Registered Member
Biggest ITS JUST A PRANK BRO in history.

I am still not convinced this is all just a planned act. It was a real act, but it went down peacefully. We will likely not know the truth until several years down the line.
Not really. The jury isn’t out yet. Once this supposed deal is confirmed, we can cast judgment.
What exactly do you do with the hundreds or thousands of troops that decided to along go with the "failed" coup?
Disintegrate them by splitting them up into tiny groups scattered across the Russian armed forces and and not allowing them to take key leadership positions.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Well, IMO both came to the conclusion , against each other both will lose … so even if no true solution on how to proceed is known, this is anyway better than open full civil war.

From my point of view there was never a threat of civil war. For civil wars to become viable conflict must emerge along the fault lines between factions. Prigozhin is not a faction that is hostile to the faction currently in power. He is part of it. He has been, is and will be Putin's man. A faction in power can't coup itself.

When a faction in power loses control over its parts then the rival faction steps in and addresses the power vacuum. Did you see the military pacify Wagner? No, it was Wagner attempting to pacify the military.

So that means that today's mutiny was staged to trigger panic reactions and pre-empt any actual coup that Putin feared could emerge from the military.

You can't understand what happened today by applying western-democratic political logic because Russia is not a western democracy. Russia despite its modern facade is a traditional state entity - a typical hard power autocracy where physical security determines the outcome of political process.

The natural source of physical security is the military which is why most autocracies are military dictatorships. Russia has however developed an organised state security apparatus that countered the military throughout the Soviet era. That state security apparatus is represented by Putin and his "sovereign democracy" model of United Russia. Wagner has been explicitly a part of that system from its inception. Wagner is FSB's army. Not Rosgvardia - they are internal troops for tasks inside Russia. Wagner is FSB's troops for tasks outside Russia.

The military also shouldn't be confused for the conscripts. In Russia "the military" refers exclusively to the cadres and military intelligence services in particular.

The entire political dynamic in Putin's Russia therefore revolves around suppressing the military and separating them from potential allies in the oligarch class that would either give rise to a traditional military dictatorship or lead to fragmentation of the state.

Putin's power is weakened because while the invasion of Ukraine is waged nominally by the military it was not orchestrated by the military but by state security.

The military does not really bear the brunt of the war since the highest casualty rates come from contract and mobilised personnel - not the cadres. So while the military superficially is the losing side it is Putin who is the real loser. And the longer the failed war in Ukraine lasts the weaker he becomes. The military explicitly ceded all political responsibility to political authorities and are just "following the orders" and "doing their best".

In technical terms Russian military was in "Italian strike" mode since the invasion began, with regular legal obstruction. It was as close to a creeping coup in extreme slow motion as you could imagine it. That forced Putin to publicly distance himself from the responsibility for the war so blame could be shifted onto the military. But when he did that he automatically created the impression that he was not in control of the military. He can't overtly exert political control because then he will start bearing the responsibility for the war so he must keep his distance while at the same time remain somehow at the helm.

Putin didn't want to change anything. He wanted the situation to stay as before but it was slipping away from him.

This is where the staged mutiny becomes useful. By undercutting the entire system Putin temporarily improves his personal position. The mutiny caused people all over the country to record public declarations of support to Putin and forced the military to choose sides - specifically to choose Putin's side. The military was shown publicly defending Putin and that was all that he needed. Now obviously the damage has been done and the consequences will be unavoidable in the long term but in the short term Putin reminded everyone in the displeased military cadres who is in charge. At least for now.

It was a very desperate play which shows that Putin feels very weak. The purges are likely already underway and more loyalists will be introduced into the military which will change nothing substantial apart from temporarily improving control over the structures which will perhaps be sufficient to do something about Wagner. Putin is in survival mode at this point and he is so weak that he can't directly remove high military commanders and has to resort to staging mutinies.

Also note that Prigozhin spoke today with GRU's deputy and coordinated the actions in Rostov with local GRU. That alone was a signal that it's staged.

Remember what i once said: GRU is providing physical security to nuclear weapons. It's the trump card of Russian military intelligence and the main reason why the Russian military hasn't been thoroughly purged by FSB.

So the show must go on in the circus. The bear is bleeding more than before but it's still doing its tricks and will for some time because it's after all a big animal. It's a bear, not a ferret. I'll take a while before it doesn't have strength to dance and juggle balls anymore. Today was a fun wild ride but it's always useful to learn the basics of "real politics" so as not to get confused too easily.
 

Stierlitz

Junior Member
Registered Member
Unsuccessful offensive attempts by the Ukrainian troops - the latest developments on the front

Amid the situation with the PMC Wagner, Ukrainian militants tried to attack Russian army positions in the direction of Zaporozhye and Kherson. Despite the tense situation in a number of Russian regions, this did not affect the combat effectiveness of Russian soldiers. The Russian Armed Forces successfully thwarted the attempts of the Ukrainian troops to launch an "offensive" in the Zherebyanka, Pyatikhatka and Rabotino areas in the direction of Zaporozhye. The enemy suffered significant losses in manpower and military equipment and attempted to evacuate the wounded and killed from the battlefield, but was overrun by Russian artillery.

In the Antonov Bridge area of the Kherson region, Ukrainian troops are moving additional forces towards the Dnieper River. They are actively working with artillery and using kamikaze drones in large numbers. The Russian army, having called up its reserves, is repulsing all militant attempts to attack our positions, destroying large numbers of men and controlling the entire line of contact.

@ukraine_watch
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
Aside from the outcome of this Wagner mutiny, we also need to think about what happened prior to that. Was the unhinged Prigozhin tweets true? If he was telling the truth that his headquarter got bombed for no reason, maybe he has good reason to act desperately. Otherwise, if he was lying this entire time, then he was lying from the start, and possibly planned this eventual outcome from the start. What would that imply? Honestly the more I think about it the more I just do not understand. Unlike others I will not go with 5D chess puppet show by Putin. It just seems way too risky to almost have Moscow overrun just to troll the Ukrainians into attacking. It was also extremely embarrassing for everyone involved. Nevertheless, the possibility is still above zero. I keep an open mind to this, and I accept my limited knowledge. We simply just do not know, and we should stop pretending that we know what happened until further information.
 

FriedButter

Major
Registered Member
Exile to Belarus I guess. More details to come when article is updated.

Kremlin reveals details of Wagner deal​

The criminal case, launched this weekend, against Wagner Private Millitary Company founder Evgeniy Prigozhin will be dropped and he will leave Russia, the Kremlin announced on Saturday evening.

Spokesman Dmitry Peskov revealed that Prigozhin, a Saint Petersburg Tycoon who made his initial fortune in catering, "will go to Belarus."

He added that Wagner's fighters will not be persecuted, taking into account their efforts on the frontlines of the Ukraine conflict. Peskov explained that President Vladimir Putin's team "have always respected their exploits."
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Skye_ZTZ_113

Junior Member
Registered Member
Unsuccessful offensive attempts by the Ukrainian troops - the latest developments on the front

Amid the situation with the PMC Wagner, Ukrainian militants tried to attack Russian army positions in the direction of Zaporozhye and Kherson. Despite the tense situation in a number of Russian regions, this did not affect the combat effectiveness of Russian soldiers. The Russian Armed Forces successfully thwarted the attempts of the Ukrainian troops to launch an "offensive" in the Zherebyanka, Pyatikhatka and Rabotino areas in the direction of Zaporozhye. The enemy suffered significant losses in manpower and military equipment and attempted to evacuate the wounded and killed from the battlefield, but was overrun by Russian artillery.

In the Antonov Bridge area of the Kherson region, Ukrainian troops are moving additional forces towards the Dnieper River. They are actively working with artillery and using kamikaze drones in large numbers. The Russian army, having called up its reserves, is repulsing all militant attempts to attack our positions, destroying large numbers of men and controlling the entire line of contact.

@ukraine_watch
Prigozhin does it again. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me...err...10 times? What do we call that even? Surely his acting skill is not that incredible....if it was all staged, the man must be one of Russia's greatest patriots to put it all on the line publicly. Why do people keep falling for this?
 

sequ

Major
Registered Member
It's the trump card of Russian military intelligence and the main reason why the Russian military hasn't been thoroughly purged by FSB.
How are nukes going to prevent an FSB purge of the military and why is it their trump card?
 
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