The War in the Ukraine

Derpy

Junior Member
Registered Member
Also, in practical warfare, Leopards seem to be incredibly vulnerable.
It is to early to draw any conclusions on the effectiveness of Leopards or western armored vehicles. There is a lot of incentive to spread propaganda on both sides right now and no lack of Photoshop experts.
This said they are not some invincible machines, any modern top attack anti tank weapon will defeat them as well as any other tank without active protection. Compared to most of the Soviet hand me downs They will have an edge in situational awareness,accuracy when moving etc and all things being equal will get a round on the target faster.
 

sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
This said they are not some invincible machines, any modern top attack anti tank weapon will defeat them as well as any other tank without active protection.

Thing is, pretty much every pro-ukranian joint out there were pushing this narrative that Leopards would singlehandedly wipe out every Russian position out there all the way to Moscow, so of course there is going to be a lot of atention placed on them.

This taking into consideration the near mythical status western tanks have had since the late 1980's, regardless of how warranted such status is, which makes the focus even stronger.
 

HighGround

Senior Member
Registered Member
This said they are not some invincible machines, any modern top attack anti tank weapon will defeat them as well as any other tank without active protection.

The hype around Javelins and NLAWs has largely died out. There's a reason why footage of these weapons being used is exceedingly rare these days.

And it's not because active protection systems started popping up on Russian tanks.
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
This account seems pretty certain that the burning tank is indeed a Leopard 2A4

Took like less than 1 day after deployment for the first sure kill kek

Tbh lets wait out the conclusion of these battles, right now, it seems its still happening on a huge scale. But so far, these tall profile western tanks have performed terribly for the first time they were rolled out into a real shooting war. Ukrainian basic T72s and T64s seem to have been doing better, probably because they find it easier to hide due to small size and low profile.

Leopard 2A4 has worse armor than some later T72 mods while being much taller targets. I wouldn't envy anyone who had to drive that against enemies that shoot back with anything more than AK-47s.
 

Derpy

Junior Member
Registered Member
The hype around Javelins and NLAWs has largely died out. There's a reason why footage of these weapons being used is exceedingly rare these days.

And it's not because active protection systems started popping up on Russian tanks.
You are talking about MSM hype, NLAWs and Javelins are in no way the primary way Western/NATO forces intends to deal with enemy armor. They are mostly ambush / opportunistic weapons that punish unsupported armor pushes, it was Russians running around like headless chickens the first weeks/months that enabled them to get more kills then they should have.
We have had more or less static lines for a long time now so no opportunity to use them.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
Ukraine now says Russia blew up its own lucrative ammonia pipeline. As a part of the grain deal, Russia wanted to reopen the ammonia pipeline that supplies the EU. Ukraine was resistant to bundling the two matters into one arrangement.

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June 7 (Reuters) - Russian forces repeatedly fired at an ammonia pipeline in Ukraine's Kharkiv region, a local governor said on Tuesday, a conduit potentially crucial for the extension of a deal allowing the safe export of grains and fertilizers from Black Sea ports.

The extension next month of the Black Sea Grain initiative, a pact struck in July 2022 to help tackle a global food crises, could hinge on the reopening of the pipeline.



Mikael Valtersson:

NEWS UPDATE AMMONIA PIPELINE NOON JUNE 7

The worlds longest ammonia pipeline, 2470 km, going from Togliatti at the Volga to three harbours at the Black Sea has been breached near Masyutivka (red dot left of M) in the Kupiansk region. It happened at June 5th, the day before the destruction of the Novo Kakhovka dam. Both sides blame each other. The pipeline has been shut down since February 2022, but there seems to be ammonia in it.

The pipeline has played an important part in the grain deal. The opening of the pipeline for ammonia deliveries from Russia was a demand from the russian side for allowing ukrainian grain shippments. This has not happened so Russia on June 2nd, stopped any further grain shipments until the pipeline is opened again.

The ukrainian side claims that russian artillery shelling destroyed a pumping station near Masyutivka and that no leakage of ammonia has been observed. The russian side claims on the other side that ukrainian force's blew up the pumping station and that a lot of ammonia has been released and blown towards the ukrainian lines. This has forced the ukrainians to abort military operations in the area. Russia claims that at least one are dead and three hospitalised.

I don't know the exact location of the pumping station, but since russian forces control the eastern side of the Oskil river and have a beachhead (red line) on the western side, the pumping station ought to be on the western side as well if it has been hit by russian artillery. The ukrainians could have blown up the pipeline anywhere on their territory but by doing it at the front they could easily blame the russians. By the video it seems that russian claims of a leakage at least are confirmed.

There are at present impossible to say who did it. There are arguments pro and against both sides. Russia wants to export ammonia so that would talk against the russians. The russians could of course have given up on the prospect of exporting ammonia and want to shift blame on Ukraine for the abandonment of the grain deal. The same could be said about the ukrainian side. They want to export grain, but not, it seems, if that allows Russia to gain income from ammonia export. If the pipeline is destroyed and unusable there has been two blows to important infrastructure in a couple of days.

looks like Ukraine is preparing to retreat, so we are seeing scorched earth policy.
 

Derpy

Junior Member
Registered Member
This taking into consideration the near mythical status western tanks have had since the late 1980's, regardless of how warranted such status is, which makes the focus even stronger.
The Gulf Wars perpetuated this myth.
The Abrams and Challenger did perform amazingly well against Iraqi forces but there are so many reasons for this beyond the tank itself.

The invulnerability is of course a myth and the amount of people who believe it is a testament to the power of propaganda and wishful thinking.
 
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