The War in the Ukraine

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Which uses Patriot, but will be replacing it with a local product. Given the age of the Patriot, that's not surprising.

Supposedly, the US built over 1k launchers for Patriot and has 480+ in active service. If the other 500 or so are in some sort of stockpile, that will be quite interesting to watch.
Israel still keeps some Patriot missile batteries for legacy reasons. They developed the David's Sling system to replace it.
The biggest thing with the Israeli defense systems is that they are layered and it has a command and control network system which automatically classifies targets and assigns the appropriate defensive countermeasures across the multiple layers. Part of the reason why the US never bought Iron Dome in large numbers is that Israel refuses to hand them out the source code for national security reasons and the US Military balks at having basically a black box at the core of their IADS.
 
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Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
am I serious saying Patriot anti-air missiles presents a legitimate threat to Su-35s, Su-30s, helicopters, drones and that will prolong the war? yes. What exactly is controversial about this comment? I didn't even mention missiles in that post.
That comment make sense. What I was protesting about was about the idea that Patriot SAM system was somehow going to be more effective against any of the Russian missiles being fired against any Ukrainian targets.
 

Coalescence

Senior Member
Registered Member
That comment make sense. What I was protesting about was about the idea that Patriot SAM system was somehow going to be more effective against any of the Russian missiles being fired against any Ukrainian targets.
The effectiveness of that system depends on Russia's capability to seek and destroy them with missiles, and how well the operators will be able to hide and use them. What I wonder is if they would be able to transport it safely to their area of effective range without it getting destroyed like all the warehouses and convoys Russia have bombed.
 

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
The effectiveness of that system depends on Russia's capability to seek and destroy them with missiles, and how well the operators will be able to hide and use them. What I wonder is if they would be able to transport it safely to their area of effective range without it getting destroyed like all the warehouses and convoys Russia have bombed.
Odessa is clearly the place I would send all the new stuff if I was Ukraine. Keeping an access to the sea have a giant value...They will have time to settle and train and they will not find themselves on a long road going into the east to get destroyed way more easily.
 
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jvodan

Junior Member
Registered Member
There goes Russia's main advantage thus far... the ability to conduct long range missile and air strikes.

This will be interesting.
I am sure China will be keenly interested to watch how they perform against super sonic cruise missiles and anti radiation missiles.

I would assume they will be used to protect the supply lines from the west. I strongly doubt they will be placed near the front lines so as to reduce the risk of capture. This means they will have no effect on Russian
CAS missions.

I am sure the Russians will take the opportunity to gather Sig INT on a PAC3 in true anger mode
If they only send PAC2 it will be rather disappointing.
 

Stealthflanker

Senior Member
Registered Member
These are some example of Patriot coverage in several Ukrainian cities. Despite existence of gaps against low fliers. It does still provide some "point defense". This assumes at least PAC-2GEM-T or PAC-3 with AN/MPQ-65 Radar. The thing has uprated transmitter and maybe better receiver with about 20-30% more range compared to original AN/MPQ-53 Patriot had back then.

Odessa.
VjRf6YP.png

As seen, deployment in Odessa give kind of good coverage, against high altitude target it can be used at maximum range (160-220 km) For low fliers it will however protect only the city. It may can be used to deny access to Transnistrian airspace as Ukraine is claiming of doing.

Kharkov

AryATdh.png

Deployed in city of Kharkov a Patriot may deny use 5000 m altitude as deep as Kursk where Russian Su-30 base are located, but for low altitude target, Coverage become spotty with notable "gap" in northern direction against target flying at about 40-100 meters. This deployment however might be risky as it so close to Russian forces. The battery would be highly vulnerable not only from Russian means of defense suppression but also conventional artilleries.


Kiev

sDQ78Ga.png

Similar coverage as one in Kharkov, the battery may engage high altitude target flying as deep as Mazar, Belarus and radar coverage as deep as Gomel. These cities are notable for Russian fighters flying high and releasing standoff weapon. Low altitude coverage exhibit kind of similar gaps as Kharkov.

Lviv

22nUnlv.png

The battery have notable good coverage against target flying as low as 500 m but appears much less so against lower flying target. It may still however reduce chance of another Yavoriv from happening. The high altitude coverage seems good to cover most of Eastern Ukraine.

Dnipropetrovsk

fNuxxD9.png

Placement of Patriot there may allow coverage of Russian occupied territory in Lugansk and Donetsk, high altitude coverage even extend as deep as Mariupol and most of Kherson oblast. Had this present earlier it may contribute to Mariupol campaign and bombing of Azovstal with conventional bombs by Tu-22M3's probably wont happen.

Regardless of performance against Houthi drones and Ballistic missiles (well KSA bought THAAD supposedly to relieve their patriots from that role) It is a threat Russia should not (and naturally) underestimate. Technical means of suppression exist even back in 1980's with apparent existence of Tochka equipped with anti radiation warhead to suppress NATO patriot battery. Su-34 with that big dangling jammer will finally get more representative target for their SAP-14's and should be carrying KH-31's or something with longer range to deal with Patriots.

I believe the US will send at least PAC-2 with range of at least 160 km maybe also with specific anti standoff jammer missile with 200 km range.
 

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
Israel still keeps some Patriot missile batteries for legacy reasons. They developed the David's Sling system to replace it.
The biggest thing with the Israeli defense systems is that they are layered and it has a command and control network system which automatically classifies targets and assigns the appropriate defensive countermeasures across the multiple layers. Part of the reason why the US never bought Iron Dome in large numbers is that Israel refuses to hand them out the source code for national security reasons and the US Military balks at having basically a black box at the core of their IADS.
Didn’t the US fund the research and development of Iron Dome? They likely had access to the source code from the get go.

Besides, the US gives them billions of military aid every year. There is nothing more critical to Israeli national security than having Uncle Sam on their side.
 
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