The War in the Ukraine

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
Forgive me ladies and gentlemen for placing a CNN article in this forum but The information written between the actual words in these articles today are telling a very interesting story, at lewst for me. These systems you don't just hand over to civilians rounded up off the streets, quick shipment (within days quoting from the article) and say we did it Joe!

What this says to me is mission creep. These need to be crewed by the previously mentioned expanding US presence for "monitoring" US weapons (anybody know what monitoring means these day?)

So why Patriots? They have a dismal track record in actual performance VS iranian drone attacks amd even piece meal Iraqi ancient Scuds. Russia is using Iranian drones alongside some of the most advanced ballistic and cruise missiles in the world today, combined with a seemingly endless stockpile of Soviet era war stock all of which Iran itself doesn't have access to, aside from its drones.

Why not some S300 that Ukraine itself says are effective? Well I think the answer is obvious.

I have a feeling the US is getting desperate with this move if they actually do it. How will Russia counter? Well they already know how but we don't. We can only hypothesize until we see it.

For me, Patriot looks to be a slow lumbering relatively fixed target begging for an anti radiation missile, it has a never been tested in a high intesity warzone such as this, other then Iraq which is not even comparable. it has faced fire again in a low intensity conflict and performed dismally defending against drone swarms.

Whats left after this? F16s which will gare just as well as MiG29s? There isn't much left the US can do short of entering the war and at that point we know what happens.

What do you guys think?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Effectiveness aside it could be a good test of the system to know where to improve on.
 

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
Forgive me ladies and gentlemen for placing a CNN article in this forum but The information written between the actual words in these articles today are telling a very interesting story, at lewst for me. These systems you don't just hand over to civilians rounded up off the streets, quick shipment (within days quoting from the article) and say we did it Joe!

What this says to me is mission creep. These need to be crewed by the previously mentioned expanding US presence for "monitoring" US weapons (anybody know what monitoring means these day?)

So why Patriots? They have a dismal track record in actual performance VS iranian drone attacks amd even piece meal Iraqi ancient Scuds. Russia is using Iranian drones alongside some of the most advanced ballistic and cruise missiles in the world today, combined with a seemingly endless stockpile of Soviet era war stock all of which Iran itself doesn't have access to, aside from its drones.

Why not some S300 that Ukraine itself says are effective? Well I think the answer is obvious.

I have a feeling the US is getting desperate with this move if they actually do it. How will Russia counter? Well they already know how but we don't. We can only hypothesize until we see it.

For me, Patriot looks to be a slow lumbering relatively fixed target begging for an anti radiation missile, it has a never been tested in a high intesity warzone such as this, other then Iraq which is not even comparable. it has faced fire again in a low intensity conflict and performed dismally defending against drone swarms.

Whats left after this? F16s which will gare just as well as MiG29s? There isn't much left the US can do short of entering the war and at that point we know what happens.

What do you guys think?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Xi Yazhou made a good point on monday: the balance of power in Ukraine is extremely fragile, even small aids can tip the balance. Before the power infrastructure bombing campaign begun if I told you a few thousand Iranian flying moped with a few hundred cruise missiles mixed in could cripple Ukraine at a strategic level would you have believed me? Yet here we are.

Around when Surovikin was promoted Russia's strategy changed. Rather than trying to forcing Kiev to the negotiation table by taking ground the strategy changed to win by destroying Ukraine as a viable state. Hence at the strategic level the bombing campaign against energy infrastructure and at a tactical level the focus changed from taking/holding ground to inflicting casualty. If the front line looks bad Surovikin will not hesitate giving up ground ala Kherson. Where as if the front line looks good for grinding up Ukrainian troops he also won't rush in take that ground.

Russians/Surovikin has identified that "not one step backward" has become politically correct in Ukraine and is now using that against Ukraine while at the same time not bounded by the same on his side, political pressure at home be damned. General Armageddon is ready to bury an entire generation of Ukrainians, all he needs is some time, hence the speech by Putin a few days ago that SMO will take some more time.

No single weapon system can change this because its not a question about weapons, its a matter of strategy. Ukraine cannot stop feeding men into the meat grinder laid out for them unless they abandon their no step back policy. Symbolic amount of PAC only serve for the US to say "you asked for it and you got them, if you are still losing its your own problem".
 

CrazyHorse

Junior Member
Registered Member
Forgive me ladies and gentlemen for placing a CNN article in this forum but The information written between the actual words in these articles today are telling a very interesting story, at lewst for me. These systems you don't just hand over to civilians rounded up off the streets, quick shipment (within days quoting from the article) and say we did it Joe!

What this says to me is mission creep. These need to be crewed by the previously mentioned expanding US presence for "monitoring" US weapons (anybody know what monitoring means these day?)

So why Patriots? They have a dismal track record in actual performance VS iranian drone attacks amd even piece meal Iraqi ancient Scuds. Russia is using Iranian drones alongside some of the most advanced ballistic and cruise missiles in the world today, combined with a seemingly endless stockpile of Soviet era war stock all of which Iran itself doesn't have access to, aside from its drones.

Why not some S300 that Ukraine itself says are effective? Well I think the answer is obvious.

I have a feeling the US is getting desperate with this move if they actually do it. How will Russia counter? Well they already know how but we don't. We can only hypothesize until we see it.

For me, Patriot looks to be a slow lumbering relatively fixed target begging for an anti radiation missile, it has a never been tested in a high intesity warzone such as this, other then Iraq which is not even comparable. it has faced fire again in a low intensity conflict and performed dismally defending against drone swarms.

Whats left after this? F16s which will gare just as well as MiG29s? There isn't much left the US can do short of entering the war and at that point we know what happens.

What do you guys think?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
The patriot is an effective system, it just doesn’t intercept everything, no system can.
 

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
Forgive me ladies and gentlemen for placing a CNN article in this forum but The information written between the actual words in these articles today are telling a very interesting story, at lewst for me. These systems you don't just hand over to civilians rounded up off the streets, quick shipment (within days quoting from the article) and say we did it Joe!

What this says to me is mission creep. These need to be crewed by the previously mentioned expanding US presence for "monitoring" US weapons (anybody know what monitoring means these day?)

So why Patriots? They have a dismal track record in actual performance VS iranian drone attacks amd even piece meal Iraqi ancient Scuds. Russia is using Iranian drones alongside some of the most advanced ballistic and cruise missiles in the world today, combined with a seemingly endless stockpile of Soviet era war stock all of which Iran itself doesn't have access to, aside from its drones.

Why not some S300 that Ukraine itself says are effective? Well I think the answer is obvious.

I have a feeling the US is getting desperate with this move if they actually do it. How will Russia counter? Well they already know how but we don't. We can only hypothesize until we see it.

For me, Patriot looks to be a slow lumbering relatively fixed target begging for an anti radiation missile, it has a never been tested in a high intesity warzone such as this, other then Iraq which is not even comparable. it has faced fire again in a low intensity conflict and performed dismally defending against drone swarms.

Whats left after this? F16s which will gare just as well as MiG29s? There isn't much left the US can do short of entering the war and at that point we know what happens.

What do you guys think?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
The best answer is that the US don't have any older functionning systems to give... The quality of this system have not a perfect history but it's certainly better than old HAWK systems given lately. It will certainly push back the time for a clear sky over Ukraine for the VKS to attack in total impunity.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
The US might try to put these Patriot air defense systems on NATO territory covering Ukrainian airspace. The Germans already put their Patriot systems in Poland close to the Ukrainian border. If these engage Russian aircraft then Russia might strike back in NATO territory possibly starting a larger conflict.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Latest from @milchronicles.

RF Armed Forces are developing an offensive on Velikaya Novosyolka: details

Since December 10, the Russian army has been successfully advancing in the direction of n. Velikaya Novosyolka village.

This urban-type settlement, located 30 km northwest of Vugledar, was an important hub for supplying a whole network of strongholds of the 56th motorized infantry and 68th Jaeger brigades of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the area of the settlement n. Zolotaya Niva, Prechistovka, Novomayorskoe and Shevchenkovo.

The combat stability of the first line of defense of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the west and south-west of Pavlovka, which was liberated by the RF Armed Forces, also largely depends on its functioning.

On December 11 and 12, 2022, units of the Marine Corps of the Russian Navy managed to break into the defense of the Armed Forces of Ukraine near the village of Neskuchnoye on the southwestern outskirts of Velikaya Novosyolka. The advance was largely due to the successful work of Russian artillery and tank support.

A battery of Russian "Hyacinth-S" suppressed the firing positions of a platoon of FH70 howitzers of the 55th artillery brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine with long-range projectiles "Krasnopol". T-80U crews destroyed up to a T-72 company of the 1st Tank Brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

As a result, the O-0510 Velikaya Novosyolka - Gulyaipole highway fell under the direct fire control of mortars and ATGM crews. Thus, the possibility of transferring reserve units from the Zaporozhye direction towards Vuhledar for the Armed Forces of Ukraine became noticeably more complicated.
 

GodRektsNoobs

Junior Member
Registered Member
Interesting how they portray this as Super-upgrade

I wonder if it includes provisions for forcing Ukrainian civilians snatched off the streets inside and welding the hatches shut

Remember guys. T62 in Russian hands = Russia already lost. T55 in Ukraine means winner winner chicken dinner

Clowns
If this is considered "super" upgrade, then what's Type 59G? Pro Plus Max Ultra 5G upgrade?
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Xi Yazhou made a good point on monday: the balance of power in Ukraine is extremely fragile, even small aids can tip the balance. Before the power infrastructure bombing campaign begun if I told you a few thousand Iranian flying moped with a few hundred cruise missiles mixed in could cripple Ukraine at a strategic level would you have believed me? Yet here we are.

Around when Surovikin was promoted Russia's strategy changed. Rather than trying to forcing Kiev to the negotiation table by taking ground the strategy changed to win by destroying Ukraine as a viable state. Hence at the strategic level the bombing campaign against energy infrastructure and at a tactical level the focus changed from taking/holding ground to inflicting casualty. If the front line looks bad Surovikin will not hesitate giving up ground ala Kherson. Where as if the front line looks good for grinding up Ukrainian troops he also won't rush in take that ground.

Russians/Surovikin has identified that "not one step backward" has become politically correct in Ukraine and is now using that against Ukraine while at the same time not bounded by the same on his side, political pressure at home be damned. General Armageddon is ready to bury an entire generation of Ukrainians, all he needs is some time, hence the speech by Putin a few days ago that SMO will take some more time.

No single weapon system can change this because its not a question about weapons, its a matter of strategy. Ukraine cannot stop feeding men into the meat grinder laid out for them unless they abandon their no step back policy. Symbolic amount of PAC only serve for the US to say "you asked for it and you got them, if you are still losing its your own problem".
Russian govt official spokesman Dmitry Peskov and Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov are on record saying Russia is not seeking regime change in Ukraine. Putin is on record saying the war can only end via negotiated settlement. This doesn't sound like a strategy to "end Ukrainian state viability" to me, the infrastructure strikes are designed to make Ukrainian lives inconvenient, reduce public morale, or degrade military efficiency/performance. Russia is using this to negotiate from a stronger position, not regime change or ending Ukraine existence.

So no, Russia is not seeking to end Ukrainian existence, they are just looking to capture Donbass and negotiated settlement. The retreat from Kherson, Kharkiv, Kiev and mobilization all point to a swift capture of Donestk (original objective), not some grand strategy to end Ukrainian existence.
 
Top