The Royal Navy's Type 45 Destroyer

Re: English Type 45 destroyer

Aerodriver said:

Along with the new aircraft carriers (2 ships each with 50+aircraft <probably JSF>) it looks like the Royal Navy will be a small but very capable force in 10 years time.
The Royal Navy claims to be the only military force never to be defeated.
Ger Mark, just out of interest why do you think it would be highly over rated?????
I would expect that due to the fact that the Royal Navy is the only navy to have experienced first hand reasonably modern air attacks against its ships in the Falklands (I can not think of a more recent example of air warfare against any surface fleet), that its new air defence ship is very capable.

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In terms of close in air defence and anti shiping missiles the F124 Frigate is superior, because Sea Ram is much more capable than Phalanx, and the Type 45 has no anti shipping capability. In terms of ASW the type 45 probably has a better sonar suite, but the German ship does have 2 helo's vs Type 45' 1. The Type 45 has a bigger main gun, but the German ship has a faster firing, but much smaller gun. The main comparison is the air defence weapons, the German ship has the much more capable Mk.41 VLS, whilst the Type 45 has the very limited Syler VLS. Currently, the Type 45 has the better medium range missile Aster 30, but the Germans are getting thr latest SM2 when it's released which will be superior to the Aster 30, at least in terms of range, and the SM3 can be used which will give the German ship missile defence capability, which the Type 45 doesnt have. The Type 45's Aster 15 missile is probably superior to the ESSM, but the German ship can hold 4 ESSM in each cells, compared to the 1 Aster 15 in each cell on Type 45, so can hold twice the number of missiles in half the number of cells! = more long range AAM. The Type 45 has 48 cells from the start and is planned to get 16 more, so will have 64 compared to the German ships 32 cells, but the German ship can use the space much more effectively, and can carry a range of weapons such as Harpoon, or Tomahawk to give it deep strike capability.

The Type 45 will be a better escort for the carrier group, because it larger and has more cells, whereas the German ship has much more flexibility in what it can do. Although the Type 45 doesnt have super long ranged AAM, its carrier has F35 so its less of a problem, and Type 45 may be upgraded with Mk.41's, Sea Ram's ect in the future.

Re: English Type 45 destroyer

ger_mark said:

In terms of close in air defence and anti shiping missiles the
F124 Frigate is superior, because Sea Ram is much more capable than Phalanx,
and the Type 45 has no anti shipping capability.

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Isn't the Type 45 Frigate armed with 8x AGM-84 Harpoon AShM's?

The ship-based helicopter can be used to carry anti-ship missiles too. The Lynx HMA 8 is designed to carry 4 Sea Skua's.

Re: English Type 45 destroyer

ger_mark said:

In terms of close in air defence and anti shiping missiles the F124 Frigate is superior, because Sea Ram is much more capable than Phalanx, and the Type 45 has no anti shipping capability. In terms of ASW the type 45 probably has a better sonar suite, but the German ship does have 2 helo's vs Type 45' 1. The Type 45 has a bigger main gun, but the German ship has a faster firing, but much smaller gun. The main comparison is the air defence weapons, the German ship has the much more capable Mk.41 VLS, whilst the Type 45 has the very limited Syler VLS. Currently, the Type 45 has the better medium range missile Aster 30, but the Germans are getting thr latest SM2 when it's released which will be superior to the Aster 30, at least in terms of range, and the SM3 can be used which will give the German ship missile defence capability, which the Type 45 doesnt have. The Type 45's Aster 15 missile is probably superior to the ESSM, but the German ship can hold 4 ESSM in each cells, compared to the 1 Aster 15 in each cell on Type 45, so can hold twice the number of missiles in half the number of cells! = more long range AAM. The Type 45 has 48 cells from the start and is planned to get 16 more, so will have 64 compared to the German ships 32 cells, but the German ship can use the space much more effectively, and can carry a range of weapons such as Harpoon, or Tomahawk to give it deep strike capability.

The Type 45 will be a better escort for the carrier group, because it larger and has more cells, whereas the German ship has much more flexibility in what it can do. Although the Type 45 doesnt have super long ranged AAM, its carrier has F35 so its less of a problem, and Type 45 may be upgraded with Mk.41's, Sea Ram's ect in the future.

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The type 45 has provisions for a CIWS/Point air defnece sytem, but never specificaly did any state that it was going to be phalanx. It could be a golkeeper or RAM for all we know. The destroyer amy be able to accomadate tomahawks and harpoons as well.

Dont just look at the weapons, look at the sensors. the BAE Systems Insyte Sampson multi-function, dual-face active array radar appears to be world class in terms of power and detection ability. BAE Systems Insyte/ Thales S1850M radar is also a highly capable sea search radar

Re: English Type 45 destroyer

adeptitus said:

Isn't the Type 45 Frigate armed with 8x AGM-84 Harpoon AShM's?

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Nope. Its helo may come with Skuas, but certainly not Harpoons.

Re: English Type 45 destroyer

The Type 45 Destroyer is a classic example of "fitted for, but not with". The ships will remain in service for a very long time, and will recieve refits throughout their service life as the needs of the RN demand. This is for the most part, a cost cutting measure for their initial purchase.

The Type 45's sensor fit may well be the best in the world, but whether or not that is true, is is certainly one of the best, no corners were cut here. As for anti-ship missiles, it is designed for, but not delivered with. However it should be noted that the RN does not have any forseen extra requirement for ship launched anti-ship missiles at the moment. Comparing sonar suits and gun sizes is also completely meaningless, as the Type 45 is an AAW Destroyer first and foremost, and a multi-role ship second. The Type 45's verticle launch system will be capable of fireing the Storm Shadow cruise missile, when it has finished development. As for CIWS, cannon based systems are for the most part obsolete today, while Sea Ram has been successfully trialed on a Type 42 destroyer. I do not know if the Type 45 will be delivered with Sea Ram, but it will be fitted with 30mm close range guns.

Whoever said the Type 45 only operates one helicopter was mistaken. It has hangar space for a lone Merlin or two Lynx, while the deck space is capable of handling and refueling a Chinook.

Re: English Type 45 destroyer

Yimmy said:

The Type 45 Destroyer is a classic example of "fitted for, but not with". The ships will remain in service for a very long time, and will recieve refits throughout their service life as the needs of the RN demand. This is for the most part, a cost cutting measure for their initial purchase.

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Yes, unfortunately the MoD wasn't able to afford all those nice extras that would make the Darings even better, due to overspends on things like the Eurofighter. However it will get the necessary systems eventually.

As for anti-ship missiles, it is designed for, but not delivered with. However it should be noted that the RN does not have any forseen extra requirement for ship launched anti-ship missiles at the moment.

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Daring is designed to be an AAW platform. Anti-ship capability was never a priority AFAIK, though again there is room for Harpoon as with other systems. The T-42s weren't deemed to need such a provision either (I never believed Sea Dart would be that useful in such a capacity).

I do not know if the Type 45 will be delivered with Sea Ram, but it will be fitted with 30mm close range guns.

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HMS Daring will be delivered with Phalanx, not SeaRAM, from current info. Hopefully she will be upgraded, with later models having it fit as standard. But no SeaRAM to start with.

Whoever said the Type 45 only operates one helicopter was mistaken. It has hangar space for a lone Merlin or two Lynx, while the deck space is capable of handling and refueling a Chinook.

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Currently plans suggest that the Darings will come into service with only one, even if there is room for a second.

Re: English Type 45 destroyer

The second Type 45, HMS Dauntless deployed to Falklands



what do you think guys ?

I think it is overkill, just to protect ~3,000 population (and only 900 British) and with total GDP only $75M



I think the cost of deploying HMS Dauntless + operation cost would be way more than the total GDP, would be much worse if depreciation cost of the ship is included.

And against Argentina ?, which practically has no navy nor air force ?

British tax payer wouldn't be happy as British is on the edge of bankruptcy, very high unemployment, especially for youngsters

Re: English Type 45 destroyer

antiterror13 said:

The second Type 45, HMS Dauntless deployed to Falklands

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what do you think guys ?

I think it is overkill, just to protect ~3,000 population (and only 900 British) and with total GDP only $75M

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I think the cost of deploying HMS Dauntless + operation cost would be way more than the total GDP, would be much worse if depreciation cost of the ship is included.

And against Argentina ?, which practically has no navy nor air force ?

British tax payer wouldn't be happy as British is on the edge of bankruptcy, very high unemployment, especially for youngsters

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The ship has already been bought so there is no additional cost from building her or from her maintenance. And she would still have a crew and still use fuel. But this is not about 3000 people, this is about oil under the ocean around the islands. The people would be about as happy, perhaps even more, as citizens of Argentina and they could still speak English as other Argentinians still speak Welsh, even after several generations.

Re: English Type 45 destroyer

delft said:

The ship has already been bought so there is no additional cost from building her or from her maintenance. And she would still have a crew and still use fuel. But this is not about 3000 people, this is about oil under the ocean around the islands. The people would be about as happy, perhaps even more, as citizens of Argentina and they could still speak English as other Argentinians still speak Welsh, even after several generations.

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I suggest you do some more research on the Falkland Islanders. They have sampled 'Argentine Citizenship' in 1982, and I doubt they would entertain the idea voluntarily under any circumstances. They are British, and wish to remain so forever. Try going to Gibralter and ask the locals if they wouldn't be happier under Spanish rule, and when you get out of the Hospital let me know what their answer was! ;-)

Re: English Type 45 destroyer

There must be a vast difference between being conquered by the army of a bunch of criminal generals and being transferred in the way Hong Kong was transferred back to China. But of course it will only happen after most of that oil has been got out. I saw a remark a few years ago about Scottish independence becoming acceptable to the London government now that North Sea oil is running out.