The Civil War in Libya

Re: Majority of 23,000 votes in Fox News poll wants U.S. to stay out of Libya

plawolf said:

So people who don't agree with you = bad oppression lovers. But those who do agree with you = good freedom lovers?

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I have no idea, if the Arab League and the rebels want intervention, why don't you tell me who would oppose it and why?

Although I bet you will also have something to say if Russia and China were in support of intervention and insisted on Russian and Chinese boots on the ground in Libya leading the international response

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I wouldn't have anything to say about it, provided that the Russian and Chinese troops supported a democratic government as soon as the conflict was over. But we're not at that stage, we're talking about a no-fly zone. I would have even less to say 9 about Russian and Chinese planes enforcing that - I would actually praise it.

Now, are you going to accuse me of lying when I say I would welcome Russia and China getting stuck in to help protect Libyan civilians?

You may have failed to realize that the majority of America's own people think they should butt out when asked.

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Depending on the question asked. I'm sure if someone formulated a question implying that without a no-fly zone there would be massacres and stating that there was support from the Arab League, the answer would be different.

Part of the price you pay when you pick too might fights for questionable reasons is that the world no longer trust your intentions

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If you only launch military expeditions for selfish reasons, yes. But if for once you have most people on your side - and you don't have anything to gain by it - you can improve your standing.

Ha! If you did that NATO would be an organization with members you could probably count on one hand.

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Perhaps that would be for the best. Anyone who wanted NATO protection/membership would have to earn it.

Majority of 38,000 votes in Fox News poll wants U.S. to stay out of Libya


Some Libyan rebels do not want foreign intervention in their civil war.




60% of 38,000 respondents want U.S. to stay out of Libyan civil war.

Re: 63% Say U.S. Should Stay Out of Libya Crisis

Martian said:

This one is a scientific poll.

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"63% Say U.S. Should Stay Out of Libya Crisis
Tuesday, March 08, 2011
...

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The wording of that poll is a bit better IMO.
I wonder what the college campuses of the US think as well...

Re: Majority of 38,000 votes in Fox News poll wants U.S. to stay out of Libya

Martian said:

Some Libyan rebels do not want foreign intervention in their civil war.

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That's the characteristic of "Facebook revolution", to stay it true to "people power" not something stir up by foreign powers. But when it escalate into armed conflict and facing organised, fully equipped regulars, that ain't gonna work anymore.

Of course it's their choice after all, even if that means it's their heads get smash in the end.

There's lots of reports of Qaddafi's forces using their navy to provide fire support against coastal rebel targets. I wonder if we could find any video of that.

Looks like it's the end for the Libyan rebels:



I think this will have a far greater ricochet than anyone realizes. If Gaddafi wins this one, that will really show that the West is a "paper tiger". The "Facebook revolution" will come to an end in Libya, as middle eastern dictators see that they can use force to suppress any rebellion and the West won't do anything about it.

It's really ironic, if you think about it. Bush went into Iraq despite overwhelming global opposition and without any strategy of nation building. The failure of Iraq directly led to Obama's paralysis on Libyan intervention, even in the face of a popular uprising and a good prospect of rebuilding the nation.

It could be argued that the US should have done in Libya what they shouldn't have done in Iraq.

Check this article, apparently the rebels got 2 fighters in the air and hit a Libyan Navy ship! Not important to the overall strategic picture, but still pretty awesome.

solarz said:

Looks like it's the end for the Libyan rebels:

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I think this will have a far greater ricochet than anyone realizes. If Gaddafi wins this one, that will really show that the West is a "paper tiger". The "Facebook revolution" will come to an end in Libya, as middle eastern dictators see that they can use force to suppress any rebellion and the West won't do anything about it.

It's really ironic, if you think about it. Bush went into Iraq despite overwhelming global opposition and without any strategy of nation building. The failure of Iraq directly led to Obama's paralysis on Libyan intervention, even in the face of a popular uprising and a good prospect of rebuilding the nation.

It could be argued that the US should have done in Libya what they shouldn't have done in Iraq.

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That's different, if not counting on political justification the US ain't that rich to afford another invasion. Besides, even if US wants to intervene with military in beyond no-fly-zone measures, they need more launch points than from the sea - back when with Iraq the US launched from Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, but now there's no country around Libya for US to play out such, neither they've troops spare to do so, and 2 weeks are too short for mobilization for such an operation.

And of course, the rebels made a terrible - if not foolish - mistake in refusing foreign military aid. Armed revolution without proper planning and preparation, plus foreign support would falter, with a proven track record to boot. Like I said before "Facebook revolution" don't transit well to armed revolt, and for what little accomplishments Gaddafi made in his lifetime, he proved guns and resolve will win the day for the regime, and now Saudi heed such lesson, deploying troops to Bahrain.

Finn McCool said:

Check this article, apparently the rebels got 2 fighters in the air and hit a Libyan Navy ship! Not important to the overall strategic picture, but still pretty awesome.

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Not confirmed.

MwRYum said:

And of course, the rebels made a terrible - if not foolish - mistake in refusing foreign military aid. Armed revolution without proper planning and preparation, plus foreign support would falter, with a proven track record to boot. Like I said before "Facebook revolution" don't transit well to armed revolt, and for what little accomplishments Gaddafi made in his lifetime, he proved guns and resolve will win the day for the regime, and now Saudi heed such lesson, deploying troops to Bahrain.

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It didn't even need to be military aid. I think the most important part is that the West was once again, blinded by its ideology. Read any news article from Western media in the early days of the Libyan revolution. Every single one of them was convinced that Gaddafi was "finished". The rebels had taken over more than half the country, and the West thought that the rebels could handle Gaddafi by themselves. Unfortunately, so did the rebels.

The rebels, being a bunch of idealistic civilians, could be excused for such optimism. Western politicians and military leaders, on the other hand, are inexcusable. This kind of development should have been foreseen since the very first time Gaddafi started employing force, and contingency plans should have been made, and advisors and diplomats should have been sent to the Libyan rebels to try to forge a united and organized front.

Instead, the Libyan rebels were left largely to themselves, wallowing in their delusions of grandeur, before harsh reality brutally blind-sided them.

Of course, there is another possibility for the West's behavior: that they were only paying lip-service to supporting Libyan democracy, that what they were ultimately interested in was Libya's oil, and the stability that Gaddafi provided. Of course, if that was their intention, then it's going to work out badly for them. Nobody likes two-faces, and I seriously doubt Gaddafi is going to be very cooperative with the West once he regains power.

Then again, if Gaddafi proves reticent to work with the West, then we might actually see an armed intervention after all...