The Chinese aircraft carrier programme

well, lets look about the propulsion-systems,´used by navy ships which was build by different chinese yards:

Dalian SY.
Shenzhen ('Luhai') class multirole destroyers (1999 and further more/Type 051 C):
- CODOG: 2 Chinese licensed-built MTU 12V 1163TB83 cruise diesels, 2 boost Ukraine GT25000 gas turbines,
Zhuhai ('Luda-II' class) surface warfare frigate (1992)
- Steam turbines, 4 boilers, 2 shafts,
Jinan ('Luda-I') class surface warfare frigates (161-165 /
- Steam turbines, 4 boilers, 2 shafts
=> the developement is steam turbines => CODOG / MAN or MTU diesels

Qiuxin SY & Jiangnan SY, respectively, Shanghai
Type 052C (Lanzhou class) air defence missile destroyers (2004)
- CODOG, 2 Shaanxi diesels (Chinese copy of the MTU 20V956TB92) and 2Ukraine-made DA80/DN80 gas turbines
TYPE 052B (GUANGZHOU CLASS) MISSILE DESTROYER (2004)
- CODOG, consisting of two Ukraine-made DA80/DN80 gas turbines and two Shaanxi diesels (Chinese copy of the MTU 20V956TB92)
Harbin ('Luhu') class multirole destroyers (1993, 1996):
- CODOG; 2 MTU cruise diesels, 8,840 bhp, 20 knots; 2 LM2500 boost gas turbines (possibly Ukranian turbines in 113)
Xiamen ('Jianghu-I') class light patrol frigates
- 4 SEMT-Pielstick diesels, 2 shafts
=> the developement is SEMT-Pielstick-diesels => CODOG / MTU diesels

Zhonghua SY, Shanghai
Jinan ('Luda-I') class surface warfare frigates (131-134)
- Steam turbines, 4 boilers, 2 shafts

Hudong SY, Shanghai and Huangpu SY, Guangzhou:
Ma’anshan class (Type 054)
- combined diesel and diesel (CODAD);primary propulsion is two French-made SEMT Pielstick diesel engines - secondary propulsion is two indigenous Shaanxi diesels (Chinese copy of the MTU 20V 956TB92
'Jiangwei-II' class light frigates (1998 and further more)
- 4 MTU diesels, 2 shafts,
Anqing ('Jiangwei') class light frigates (1991 ....)
- 4 MTU diesels, 2 shafts,
Zigong ('Jianghu-V') class light patrol frigates (1993-1996)
- 2 SEMT-Pielstick diesels,
Siping ('Jianghu-IV' class) light ASW frigate (1986)
- 2 SEMT-Pielstick diesels, 2 shafts
Huangshi ('Jianghu-III') class light surface warfare frigates (1986 - 1993)
- 2 SEMT-Pielstick diesels, 2 shafts
Xiamen ('Jianghu-II') class light patrol frigates
- 4 SEMT-Pielstick diesels, 2 shafts
=> the developement is: SEMT-Pielstick diesels => MTU diesels

So there is a high possibility for using MAN- or MTU dieses if Dalian Shipyard is going to power the Varjag-hull

Hudong Heavy Machinery Co. Ltd. and Dalian Marine Diesel Works have been producing MAN B&W Diesel engines since the 1980s. So far they total almost 750 engines with an amalgamated output in excess of 7,000,000 kW. For both licensees this means an increase in their already considerable output of MC engine power.

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(Source: )

I just found more big, diesel powered, high speed ships, which ar powered by these kind of diesels which also can be build in Dalian:


Gotland is powered by four 20RK270 four-stroke diesel engines with a rating of 7,080kW at 1,030rpm. Each powers a Kamewa 125 SII waterjet, giving the vessel a service speed of 35 knots.


also the SuperSeaCat (lenght 100m, 17.1m beam, depth of 10.7m, draught of 2.75m and dead-weight of 340t) is powered by four 20RK270 diesel engines. Each engine is rated at 7,080kW to give a service speed of 38 knots at full displacement,
and the vessel has a maximum continuous speed of 40 knots at full load.




This could be a possibility to power the Varjag - but I am looking on for gas turbines and Dalian Shipyard.

Sorry, i've been bit busy and i haven't noticed your posts in here.

First of all that Superseacat is quite nice ship, i've traveled few times with it from Helsinki to Tallin.

But anyway to the point. If i'm correct, you suggest that Varyag could be powered with Diesel engines. Frankly i doupt it. I'm not so aware of the general performance rations of different diesel engines but i've noticed that they are quite rarely powering modern main surfance combatants around the world. Only exeptions are frenchs which are using diesels quite effectively on their Frigates. Diesel engines poweres many secondary role ships, some quite large, like amphipious ships and auxiliary ships. The default of diesel engines is quite evident, the speed. Like in those examples that you gave, Ship as big as Varyag, the highest speed possiple to achive seems to be around 25 knots. Clearly not sufficient enough for fleet operations.
So if Varyag is going to be fitted with diesels, it would mean that PLAN is not going to use her as real operational carrier during all her service time. It would end up like many have suggested, to simply just aviation training ship. Perhaps not the result many of us PLAN fans would like it to turn to be

I don't believe only in gas turbines, may be they could be used additional, but the main (primary) engines ...
I think, the PLAN and Dalian shipyard ar sedate for diesel propulsion,

and the MAN RK280 engine (could be produced in Dalian Marine Diesel Works) is the most powerful and fuel efficient 1000 R/min diesel engine in the world.

If four of these engines gives the seacat a maximum continuous speed of 40 knots at full load, what could some more gives to Varjag?
Of course, seacat is a high speed vessel, constructed by light material like Aluminium, but some more engines (diesel and/or gas turbines) would even out more weight and bigger dimensions.
Didn't you think so?

Yeas ofcourse, but we must remember that Varyag is 60,000 full load Aircraft carrier where as Superseacat is fast catamaran passanger ship. The most important factor is that can any diesel engine availble at the moment anywhere in the world give Varyag size ship a enough power so that she can run approx. 30 knots required for real fleet work?

Gollevainen said:

...Varyag is 60,000 full load Aircraft carrier ..... The most important factor is that can any diesel engine availble at the moment anywhere in the world give Varyag size ship a enough power so that she can run approx. 30 knots required for real fleet work?

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1)
diesels can give a operating speed of 25 knots to ships of 104.000 ts (see page 3)
2)
did the Varjag need 30 knots all the time?
I didn't think so!
30 knots could be usefull by starting and landing of planes,
but I don't think they will run this approximate speed all the time 24hr/7days a week, and - I think - they could have this speed by adding additional engines (like turbines)
3)
so the result coud be:
primary engines: diesels
secound engines: ?
could become CODOG or CODAG

That migth be more better solution... I once read that Argentinians were planning to re-engine their 25 de mayo whit diesels, it just popped my head...

why not a CODAG arragment, but then the guestion is, what size of gas turbine is required to give speed dashes of 30 kn to aircraft carrier size boat???

Gollevainen said:

... what size of gas turbine is required to give speed dashes of 30 kn to aircraft carrier size boat???

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thats what I am looking for;
I didn't heard any rumors about selling russian or ukrainian gas turbines to chinese / Dalian Shipyard;
may be they can got local build / chinese copies,

but how to find information about gas turbines and dalian shipyard?

some information about marine propulsion is at this side, may be we found a track to Dalian ....


additional MTU China:





additional chinese products:

Nihao!

Take a look at this picture, http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=153&d=1137790732.

Since you been talking about what kind of propulsion the Chinese Aircraft Carrier would be using couldn't somebody who's better at math than me compute the size of that hole which is the shape of a upside down L straight out from the "Island" on the ship. Then somebody who's alot better at marine propulsion than me tell us what's the biggest piece in an engine and how big it is.

Maybe then we can get an answer to why is there a big hole in the Varyag carrier, or how big a hole in a carrier need to be.

Croq said:

Nihao!

Take a look at this picture, http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=153&d=1137790732.

Since you been talking about what kind of propulsion the Chinese Aircraft Carrier would be using couldn't somebody who's better at math than me compute the size of that hole which is the shape of a upside down L straight out from the "Island" on the ship. Then somebody who's alot better at marine propulsion than me tell us what's the biggest piece in an engine and how big it is.

Maybe then we can get an answer to why is there a big hole in the Varyag carrier, or how big a hole in a carrier need to be.

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I don't think that a "big hole" in the flight deck on the Varayag. If it is it probally not large enough to lift an engine down to be installed. I explained that in the older forum. That sort of work is usally done in the hangar deck on USN CV's.

My post from the old forum;

@ bd popeye, do you realy think the PLAN could lift new big engines in the ship - without a crane - or they could made the old engines run, which probably was installed before the Varjag left the ukrainian Yard ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please read carefully. My opinion only..the technology does exist to change the power plants without a large pier side crane. Weather or not the PLAN has it I don't know. I know the USN has pulled reduction gears {they are very large} out of carriers. Also replaced nuclear power plants. This is accomplished by cutting large holes in the decks above and rigging a crane in the hangar deck and lifting them out. The hangar on the Varyag has to be at least 6.5 meters high. High enough for a heavy lift crane. The engines could be disassembled in sections and then lifted out. And the new one lifted down and assembled in the engine room. Or as in the case of the USS Saratoga in the '70's a hole was cut in the side of the ship. But you all say this was not done. We all will just have to wait to see what happenes.

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You guys should go back and read that thread. It is too cool...Excellent points made by yours truely!! And others/..Hey what happened to onesdream88???



Gollevainen is correct in saying a desiel engine is not parctical for propulsion on a CV this size(60,000 tons dis). This is a big ship. Also desiel engines having so many moving parts, pistons, crankshaft etc are more prone to breakdown. Turbine's have fewer moving parts and are the way to power a modern naval vessel.

bd popeye said:

.....Gollevainen is correct in saying a desiel engine is not parctical for propulsion on a CV this size(60,000 tons dis). This is a big ship. Also desiel engines having so many moving parts, pistons, crankshaft etc are more prone to breakdown. Turbine's have fewer moving parts and are the way to power a modern naval vessel.

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thats the american view; the USN using nuclear reactors and gas turbines, but they also cancelled SKs, and now they have a problem to deal with ...

Most of american warships ar using gas turbines, most of the new chinese warships ar powered by (MTU-) diesels.

Now look at the big ships on page 3, esp. the "Norwegian Dawn", its a is diesel powered Vessel of 92.000 BRZ which allow an operationg speed of 24,6 kn


lenght 294.13 m to 32.2 m to 8,2m; 92.000 BRZ; 2 x 19.500 KW will allow 24,6 kn operating speed (49 km/h)



The alternative is: modern diesels instead of russian or ukrain gas-turbines or boilers.

Do you remember (no, not the Admiral Graf Spee, the german diesel powerd WW cruisers) the russian propulsion (turbines or boilers) of Kiew, Minsk ... they had big technical problems with this kind of technology, and if I have correct informations, they ar not much better now.

I would prefer well tried technology which could be produced in chinese factorys (in a secret overhaul) to power a new kind of warships, if the tried and tested technology will allow me nearly the some operations. So the risc of new technology will become minimized.

Thats why I am pointet by diesels - esp. the MAN-diesels, which ar licenced to Dalian Marine Diesel Works ....