The Chinese aircraft carrier programme

but you only need the speed by starting- and landing operations, not when you clean the deck, supply and arm new planes there ....

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True enough. Mostly you are just going in slow circles....

in deed, you'r right - but do you think the PLAN will start with this full operations? Didn't they should first train touch and go, starting and landing operations by a small number of (test-)pilots and add new pilots step by step; the full operational deck-management will come after a long time of training (compare to the russians: they startet there first night operations after long years of pilots training)

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They have to start somewhere. After the crew learns how to operate the ship then flight ops can begine. first with a few "Touch and go's"..then arrested landings. And launches. Gradually building to more operational capablity as they get profecient. Don't expect 12 hour cyclic ops like the USN after a few weeks. They will train to suit the needs of the PLAN.

bd popeye said:

They have to start somewhere. After the crew learns how to operate the ship then flight ops can begine. first with a few "Touch and go's"..then arrested landings. And launches. Gradually building to more operational capablity as they get profecient. Don't expect 12 hour cyclic ops like the USN after a few weeks. They will train to suit the needs of the PLAN.

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It'll take the PLAN many years to get strongly proficient in carrier air operations...to the point where they have their own traditions and culture surrounding those naval aviators and the crews that make their careers possible.

In the mean time, although the Varyag may be used principally for training purposes, I believe it will be fully opertional should the need ever arise for humanitarian or defense purposes. Stopping short of that would not make much sense to me, given the time, money, and effort they are putting into it, and given the fact that the second vessel will be several years behind the first.

Just my thoughts.

China does posses some very profficent Marine Desiel Engineering Companies, involoved in Military and Commerical Engines, I am sure that they will be able to produce the goods.

Please do not make the mistake of underestimating Chinese Engineering. They have been absorbing advanced Western techniques at an astonishing rate, through both joint venture and techniology transfer arrangments. The fruits of these processes are now making themselves felt ever more vigourously.

Don't forget China's major shipyards are at the height of an ongoing 5 year old ship building boom which shows no signs of slowing down. As a consequence these people have plenty of money for R&D experimentation etc.

SampanViking said:

China does posses some very profficent Marine Desiel Engineering Companies, involoved in Military and Commerical Engines, I am sure that they will be able to produce the goods.

Please do not make the mistake of underestimating Chinese Engineering. They have been absorbing advanced Western techniques at an astonishing rate, through both joint venture and techniology transfer arrangments. The fruits of these processes are now making themselves felt ever more vigourously.

Don't forget China's major shipyards are at the height of an ongoing 5 year old ship building boom which shows no signs of slowing down. As a consequence these people have plenty of money for R&D experimentation etc.

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I'm sure we all realize these facts. China has the most robust shipbuilding industry in the world. Bar none.

As far as the powerplant is concerned will the PLAN go the route of the IN has on the IN Vikramaditya?;

The eight boilers are being renewed and converted to take diesel fuel instead of furnace fuel oil and modern oil-water separators as well as sewage treatment plant are being incorporated to meet international standards. She is also being fitted with six new Italian-made Wärtsilä 1.5 MW diesel generators, Global Marine communications system, Sperry Bridgemaster navigation radar, a new telephone exchange, new data link and IFF Mk XI system.

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I think they mean deisel engines not generators. I'm not 100% sure...so what sort of powerpalnt will the Chinese install on the Varyag? They most readily available I think. Deisel marine engines of some sort. I've been reading up on the ones available. From what I have read they are most reliable.

This is a change of heart for me. For I do prefer steam turbine engines.

time will see - we shoudn't make a religious obsession about this
I myself prefer diesels instead of this russian scrapp ....
(anyone other ideas ? :nono: :nono: :nono: )

edit:
've you'ver seen these links?

I just found some new informations about new diesel propulsion and big non military vessels:
K98MC type is the latest engine developed by MAN B&W Diesel A/S for main machinery of large container ship, and the output of one cylinder is the world largest 7,780 BHP.
Today I saw in TV a story about this diesel, powering a big container-vessel with 11 cylinder (and optional 3 to add) which give th ship (according to tv) a service speed of 24 knots and a max speed of 30 knts
MANs K 98 MC Diesel have more than 100.000 PS (Pferdestärke = Horsepower);

...With an output of 101,645 bhp (74,760 kW) MAN B&W Diesel breaks the single-engine barrier of 100,000 bhp. The powerful 12K98MC, with a record output of 8,470 bhp (6,230 kW) per cylinder, is by far the most powerful MAN B&W Diesel designed engine in production.

Five of these 12K98MC engines will be built by MAN B&W Diesel licensee, Hyundai Heavy Industries in Korea. They are to be installed in five ultra large container carriers, which are under construction at Hyundai Shipbuilding for Greek owner Costamare. The vessels will be chartered for a very long period to Coscon (COSCO Container Lines) in China, and the first is planned for delivery in February 2006.
...

On their own COSCO has ordered four 12K98ME engines. These are destined for four 10,000 TEU container vessels also to serve the Coscon fleet.

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source:


and some more about other vessels:

The 4,864 TEU panamax containership Antwerpen Express ..... has been fitted with a seven-cylinder MAN B&W two-stroke K98MC engine. The engine was developed by MAN B&W in Denmark and its twelve-cylinder 93,360bhp configuration has been chosen by Hapag-Lloyd for its 7,200 TEU series of containerships under construction at Hyundai. .... The 9K90MC installation in each of the Hannover Express sisters delivers 55,980bhp at 94rpm, at a mean effective pressure of 18bar, whereas the seven-cylinder examples for the Antwerpen Express series turn out 54,460bhp at the crankshaft speed, on 18.2bar. The slight reduction in maximum power was regarded as acceptable on the basis of the speed performance of the vessels already in operation.

The 7K98MC engine is supercharged by three units of the TPL85-B11 turbo charger design developed by ABB Turbo Systems based in Switzerland, providing one of the first applications for the new TBL-B generation, tailor-made for two-stroke machinery.....

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and
the ships dimensions ar 294 m x 32,30 m;

(page 9)

see also about diesel engines: WIKIPEDIA

....Today (2006), the 12 cylinder MAN B&W Diesel K98MC turbocharged two-stroke diesel engine built by MAN B&W Diesel licencee Hyundai Heavy Industries in Korea is the most powerful diesel engine put into service, with a cylinder bore of 980 mm delivering 74.8 MW (101,640 bhp).....

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time will see - we shoudn't make a religious obsession about this
I myself prefer diesels instead of this russian scrapp ....

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No we shouldn't. Like I said China will use the best engines that are available. Personally I like US built marine steam turbines...The ones in the USS Kitty Hawk have been going strong for 45+ years.

Today I saw in TV a story about this diesel, powering a big container-vessel with 11 cylinder (and optional 3 to add) which give th ship (according to tv) a service speed of 24 knots and a max speed of 30 knts

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30 knots is fine.The desiel marine engine should be more than adequte to power a Cv the size that China will send to sea. 4 engines should be enough to power a ship the size of the Varyag.

Today they repeted the story
the ship was the LIONS GATE BRIDGE, a post panamax container vessel

source:
owned by Kawasaki Kisen Kaisha, Ltd. (called “K”LINE),
loa 246 m, beam 40 m; 86000 t. full load
powered by one K98MC MAN diesel, 11 cyl. (+ opt. 3 to add), 108.688 hp


including 3 turbos, which give at least a maxim. speed of 30 knts;
Service speed 25 not and need 180 t. heavy oil per day

another vessel - the COSCO GUANGZHOU

source:
chartered by COSCO Pacific (China Ocean Shipping Company)
loa 350,56 m, beam 42,8 m, 107.277 tdw,
is also powered by this diesel, 75.000 kW / 101.000 hp, speed >25 kn

In Febr. 2005 two major orders, for a total of 12 engines, have been placed with Chinese shipyards both calling for Mitsui-built K98-cm bore engines of MAN B&W Diesel design ( Source: and
).

According to the last source, by the end of February 2005 Chinese engine builders Hudong Heavy Machinery Co. Ltd. and Dalian Marine Diesel Works have received orders for various K90MC-C engines for a series of 3,500 TEU and 4,250 TEU vessels to be built in China.
See also:

Chinese engine builders expand their range – now also K90MC-C ...

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For more information about this type of diesel see

I really believe, this diesels could become the new engine to power the Varjag trainee vessel in the future ....

Dear Sirs:

I personally prefer large low-speed (or even medium-speed) marine diesels to steam turbines for a variety of reasons:

First: the higher thermal efficiency of the diesel over the steam turbine.
Second: the greater power to weight ratio of the diesel over the steam turbine.
Third: the greater fuel economy of the diesel over the steam turbine.
Last: the greater simplicity and maintainability of the diesel over a steam turbine. - you won't appreciate this unless you've actually worked with both engines.

Just my 2 cents:

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim

bd popeye said:

...Like I said China will use the best engines that are available.
.....

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thats a true word,
I only found MAN diesels, available in chinese hands, to power big ships like the varjag and give them a speed of 30 knts;
could someone give us a source or link for another engine?