The Chinese aircraft carrier programme

Well, the only reason why it crossed my mind was that my first CO was both former enlisted and the former Co of the Blue Angels. The whole thing was quite amazing, seeing such a massive aircraft (Launched with rockets, of all things) fly.

Dongfeng said:

A recent photo of Varyag. .....

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Click to expand...

isn't there a big hole in the after section of the hull - behind the island?
There should be the hangar lift locatat, but it seems to be a bigger hole ....,

and what about that?

Sczepan, The picture is not that clear but I think the "aircraft lift"(elevator) is simply lowered to the hangar. I know on USN Cv's this is common practice inport. It allows for a platform so supplies can be brought on board in port.

youright, its the normal elevator-hole

Sczepan said:

....but I 've a problem with Varjag:
the engines:
1)
when they was installed in the "Varjag-Birthplace" in the Ukraijne, they didn_t work for long years - and going rusty more and more;
the Varjag must be towed to China, and the enginless Varjag hat big problems to pass the Bosporus; it will be a waste of money to turn circle by circle for weeks and weeks in the Black See, when these engines could made running
so I don_t think this engines (when they was installed before in ukraijnian Yard) coud be made running

2)
the Varjag was in Dalian - for arround 3 Years - at a Pier without cranes (we 've seen a lot of pix these time), so the PLAN could do a lot of things there - but they had no way to change the engines

3)
..........

Click to expand...

I ve to correct me - there was a crane at the Pier. big enough, to change the engines;
it is the small yellow crane near the stern of Varjag.

the question was: how to make the carrier run with full operation speed?

I can't believe, that the Ukrainian engines - if they was installed at the Varjag before towing to dalian - becomes running.
So they have had to be replaced by other engines.

I found a little bit interesting informations:

1)
Dalian New Shipyard is the biggest modern shipbuilding yard under China State Shipbuilding Industry Corporation and an exceptionally large corporation and an export base for shipbuilding granted by the State.
It is supported by the Dalian Marine Diesel Works, a marine propeller plant, and Dalian Ship Research and Design Institute.


2)
Dalian Marine Diesel Works (DMD) building slow-speed Sulzer and MAN engines under licence;

see also:



3)
Following the link "products" at you may see a link "Marine Power"
and there you find "Two-Stroke engines", "Medium-speed engines" and "High Speed" Marine Diesels.
MAN producing also
two-Stroke engines

Medium-speed engines

and high speed diesel engines,




4)
The capacitiy of MAN diesels engines in commercial high speed ships seems to be great.

a)
The Hapag-Lloyd containership "Shanghai Express" and "Berlin Express" have large MAN Diesel engines,
93 360 hp which allow a operating speed of 24,6 Kn or 46 km/h.

2002 / 88493gt - launched as Berlin Express, built by Hyundai Heavy Industries Co., Ulsan (1364),
operated by Hapag-Lloyd Container Linie

b)
The "Colombo Express", dimension of 335 Metern lenght to 43 Metern (104.000 ts) have
engines of 68.640 kw or 93.500 hp with a operating speed of 25 Kn (50 km/h).


c)
The MS Norwegian Dawn is powered by 14 V 80/60 MAN diesels Type



lenght 294.13 m to 32.2 m to 8,2m; 92.000 BRZ; 2 x 19.500 KW will allow 24,6 kn operating speed (49 km/h)



d)
MAN B&W Diesel Ltd have received an order to supply four, 20RK280 engines to Italian ship builder Fincantieri to be used in a 122 meter monohull fast ferry.
The MAN B&W Diesel Ltd 20RK280 engines are continuously rated with classification society type approval at 9000 kWb at 1000 r/min.
Each engine will drive through a ZF 6000 NRH gearbox to Rolls Royce Ka Me Wa S140 II waterjets.
The vessel .... will have an approximate speed of 40 knots and an operating speed of 36 knots, which will be achieved at 85% engine power.


e)
The same engines could drive a vessel like the Varjag,


Displacement: 67,500.0 (Tons) (Fully Loaded); Length: 280.0 (Metres); Beam: 37.0 (Metres); Draught: 10.5 (Metres)
and wouldn't give the same engine more speed to an smaller ship - didn't you think so?

(about the power of MAN high speed marine diesels - A VIRTUAL EXPERIMENT TOOL FOR MARINE DIESEL ENGINE POWERPLANT ANALYSIS -
including the Shanghai-Express engine see also)


5)
China ordered some 12K98MC and S35MC Marine engines,




The last years, at least in 2005 MAN high-speed Marine Diesels was sold to Chinese Yards.
German sources say, China now could produce all Marine Diesels of MAN by licence.

p.s.: The RK 280 MAN seems ideal for high speed military vessels




So:
there is a possibility, that Varjag got new engines by chinese build MAN-licence

ANOTHER POSSIBILITY:
Dalian COSCO Marine Eng

- as I know- also produce MTU engines by licence;

Desiel engines are certianly reliable. But the two remaining USN conventionally powered CV's(80,000 tons dis) have eight boilers, four geared steam turbines, four shafts with 280,000 shaft horsepower and in the case of the Kitty Hawk have been operating since 1961. This is not to say diesels can't do the job rather that turbines because of fewer moving parts are more reliable. Almost all USN ships are powered by gas turbines. The USN has been using gas turbines for over 30 years.

Since I'm in a picture posting frenzy here is a pic of the Kitty Hawk in port at Apra Harbor Guam in May of 2000. Great pic.

bd popeye said:

Desiel engines are certianly reliable. But the two remaining USN conventionally powered CV's(80,000 tons dis) have eight boilers, four geared steam turbines, four shafts with 280,000 shaft horsepower and in the case of the Kitty Hawk ahve been operating since 1961....

Click to expand...

please, don_t missunderstand me:
1) I just found some information which could be a possibility, also could be the wrong track;
so I know:
The original Jianghu class frigates had steam boilers which was blamed for the notorious short range handicap of the PLAN during the 70s and 80s. It seems this was dealt with by upgrading to German diesel engines. I remember the original WWII German pocket battleships were also famous for their long range due to the then innovative use of diesel power, and the russian carriers have had big problems with there engines (boiler explosions, if I remember right). May be the PLAN have better experience with diesels instead of steam boilers - and the PLAN-Leaders trust in diesels.
Diesels directly power the vessel. In the case of steam, energy (via diesel, nuclear) is needed to convert water into steam to drive the turbines. Also the steam is needed to work the catapulte - but the Varjag as I see by new sat pix did not have this installation (see pix at http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=529&page=30); so the Varjag don't need boilers to serv a catapult.

Other things that come to mind:
1) More maintenance, higher cost
2) Safety and surviability of vessel
3) There is also time required to workup sufficient pressure to start the turbines.

Chinese yards have good relations to produce modern diesel engines, espec. Dalian shipyard have this know how:

MAN B&W Diesel and CSIC Intensify Cooperation

The MAN B&W Diesel Group and the China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC) agreed upon comprehensive cooperation with regard to the development and production of large diesel engines. The frame agreement that was recently signed in Munich also provides for close cooperation in the purchase and production of components, personnel training and license production of MAN B&W turbochargers. ....
The Chinese shipbuilding group already holds licenses for the manufacture of two-stroke and medium-speed, four-stroke engines. The frame agreement that has now been signed comprises a closer technical cooperation covering all engine types. In the future, large medium-speed engines, as well as radial and axial turbochargers will be license-built by CSIC and their associated companies. In addition, CSIC will be supported by MAN B&W in the establishment of their own crankshaft manufacturing site in China.

Click to expand...

and

Hudong Heavy Machinery Co. Ltd. and Dalian Marine Diesel Works ...have been producing MAN B&W Diesel engines since the mid-eighties and so far they total almost 750 engines a total output in excess of 7 000 000 kW. ....

Click to expand...

2) I am also looking for steam (gas-) turbines, but I didn't found some tracks leading me to Dalian Shipyard

Other things that come to mind:
1) More maintenance, higher cost
2) Safety and surviability of vessel
3) There is also time required to workup sufficient pressure to start the turbines.

Click to expand...

Well we have diffrent ideas about turbines...That's ok. But I can speak only for the USN. They have only a handful of ships that still have boilers..older LPDs LHA/LHD's two conventionally powerd CV's. All the rest are gas(JP-5) turbines instead of steam. While the USN like all navies has had some engineering maintenance problems but nothing to the scope of exploisions and fires in steam plants or turbine engines. It does reqiure lots of time to build up proper steam pressure. I don't know if the USN turbines cost more to maintain than a desiel engine.

Nothing wrong with desiels but they have limited ablity to power a vessel the size of a CV at great speeds. That's my opinion.

Good discussion!

Good points - lets talk about gas turbines and Dalian

So the question is:
2.1. did China imported gas turbines by western or ukrainian/russian builders?

2.2. have China experience and know how to build there own?

2) I am also looking for steam (gas-) turbines, but I didn't found some tracks leading me to Dalian Shipyard

Click to expand...

Lets talk about the last Navy vessels, build in Dalian Shipyard:

The Shenzhen ('Luhai') class multirole destroyers - one of the last in Dalian build (1997-98) modern destroyers of PLAN - has follwing Propulsion:
CODOG arrangement consisting of two Ukraine GT25000 gas turbines rated at 48,600hp, and two Chinese licensed-built MTU 12V 1163TB83 diesels.


reportet:

The Luhai was built at Dalian, a notable difference between the previous Luhu-class and Luhai-class and the Luyang is the replacement of the diesel-gas-turbines with gas-turbine engines. This follow-on to the Luhu destroyer has a wider hull (broader beam) to accommodate the different and somewhat larger and bulkier marine gas-turbine engine. The post-Tiananmen sanctions imposed by the US precluded acquisition of additional GE LM 2500 engines like those in the Luhu. These follow-on ships use Ukrainian G525000 gas turbines, selected due to a combination of technical and political factors.

Click to expand...

additional

Luhai 167 Shenzhen ...Launched in October 1997 at Dalian Shipyard and commissioned in late 1998... Main powerplant are locally manufactured boilers (Type 453B?) which give it a top speed of 31kt.

Click to expand...

and about the last 051C 115 Shenyang type:

..The ship is belived to be powered by boilers...

Click to expand...

another source reportet

... Luhu DDG-112 featured imported GE LM-2500 main propulsion gas turbine engines. The Tiananmen Square crackdown and ensuing U.S. embargo halted further LM-2500 imports, on which China had counted. An alternate source was the huge Nikolayev plant in Ukraine that provided main propulsion for all major Soviet warships. The combined design and production team of Mashproekt and Zarya sold four gas turbine engines to China in July 1997. These became the gas turbines on the Luhu DDG-113 and the lead Luhai DDG-167. Ukrainian Mashproekt has a license agreement for GT-25000 gas turbines with Xian Aero-Engine Corporation and the Harbin marine boiler and turbine works. Harbin is the second largest marine generator plant in China and is just up the railroad line from Dalian shipyard. Follow-on guided missile destroyers probably will also incorporate Ukrainian gas turbine engines.

Both classes of vessels have two MTU 12V TB83 diesels designed by Siemens AG of Germany. Similar units have been used on new Chinese domestic and export frigates as well as modern German-built MEKO frigates and other Australian and Spanish ships. The China state shipbuilding corporation, which includes the modern New Dalian shipyard where these ships are built, advertises licensed production of marine generator sets, diesels and switchboards. Because of the shipyard’s proximity to the Siemens AG office in Guangzhou, which is working on the massive three river dam project, Siemens equipment on new construction warships since the 1980s certainly was built in Chinese plants. The Shaanxi diesel engine works has a license agreement for 1163 high-speed diesel engines with MTU Friedrichshafen GmbH, Germany.

Click to expand...

; the last source also reportet something about diesels engines or Combination Diesel + GasTurbines ... Dalian Marine Diesel Works has licensees of MAN K90, K80 and K60MC-S type diesels, where gas turbines, can be applied

China and Britain agreed in the early 1980s to upgrade the Type 051 destroyers with Royce-Rolls TM3B gas turbines.

So it seems, that in the 1980s and 1990s chinese Navy didn'd used gas turbines.

this sounds like "Dalian yard major propulsion system ar diesels, and they didn't used the gas-turbines tech so much in the past" and indeed - the 1992 also in Dalian build Zhuhai ('Luda-II' class) surface warfare frigate Nr. 166 (Zhuhai) got a Propulsion of Steam turbines, 4 boilers, 2 shafts, 60,000 shp, 32 knots;

So I suspect: there ar not to much experience of gas-turbines in Dalian.

but wait - didn't the speak about:
"... Ukrainian Mashproekt has a license agreement for GT-25000 gas turbines with Xian Aero-Engine Corporation and the Harbin marine boiler and turbine works...."
see
and
sounds intersting, but sorry, that are to only sources I found

Harbin Marine Boiler and Turbine Research Institute - according to and - is also part of China State Shipbuilding Corporation (CSSC), like Dalian Yard. So there is a possibility for using licenced gas turbines....

hmm - my feeling says:
Dalian Shipyard preference diesels, may be in combination with gas turbines, but not sole gas turbines. To me it seems they don't have enough experience in gas turbines.

in this constellation I suspect "Varjag could get main diesel-propulsion" - CODAD or CODAG

p.s:
Dr. Peilin Zhou, Visiting Professor to Dalian Maritime University, China, since 1997, is working on COGAS (combined gas turbine with steam turbine cycles) propulsion system studies, COGAS marine propulsion system simulation, an analytical approach; so they a developing new propulsions