The Chinese aircraft carrier programme

its not the problem to get the engines .... China also could buy western dual use engines, I am sure, if China want they can have more as enough engines to power Varjag, Minsk and Kiew additional ....

there was no way (opportunitiy) to install new engines in Varjag
- not the last 3 years without crane at the pier
- and not the short days in dry dock

there was no way (opportunitiy) to install new engines in Varjag

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I've never been to the shipyard that holds the Varyag or the PRC for that manner but I think engines could have been installed. You really don't need a large crane. The engines could have been disassembled and re-assembled on board Varyag.

The below text is an answer that I posted to a similar question in our old forum.

Please read carefully. My opinion only..the technology does exist to change the power plants without a large pier side crane. Whether or not the PLAN has it I don't know. I know the USN has pulled reduction gears {they are very large} out of carriers. Also replaced nuclear power plants power cores. This is accomplished by cutting large holes in the decks above and rigging a crane in the hangar deck and lifting them out. The hangar on the Varyag has to be at least 6.5 meters high. High enough for a heavy lift crane. The engines could be disassembled in sections and then lifted out. And the new one lifted down and assembled in the engine room. Or as in the case of the USS Saratoga in the '70's a hole was cut in the side of the ship. But you all say this was not done. We all will just have to wait to see what happenes.

bd popeye, your right:

bd popeye said:

.....the technology does exist to change the power plants without a large pier side crane. ....

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but - didn't you think, this technology is expensive (disassembling the old engines in sections and then lifted out. And the new one lifted down and assembled in the engine room - or cuting a hole in the side of the ship) ;
at the other hand - hm - to cut a hole in all decks from landing deck about hangar down to engine room seems also very expansiv;
the last one didn't happened, we 've seen some pix of Varjag at the pier,
all times with closed landing deck
cuting a hole in the side of the ship .... hm, I've only seen parts of Varjag, the front part - indeed, not the back section .... this part was conceales by Containers ...
and, of course, by disassembling the old engines in sections and assembling the new one in the engine room .... they could use the hole of the aircraft hangar to handle these parts in- and outside ....

sounds interesting, so the engines and some equipment could be installed now, after 3 years of pier side - and we all didn't see this ...
top secret, no fotos on pier,
the Varjags pier side was opposed to starting and landing aeroplanes in Dalian,
and our "roof photograph" in Dalian, in front of the Shipyard, also didn't see these pier side of Varjag ....

bd popeye said:

We all will just have to wait to see what happenes.

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your right again

but - didn't you think, this technology is expensive (disassembling the old engines in sections and then lifted out. And the new one lifted down and assembled in the engine room - or cuting a hole in the side of the ship) ;

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I've seen it done my friend. On the USS Constellation CV-64 in the early 80's. The reduction gears were removed and replaced in about 5 weeks time...Expensive? You bet. The same technology could repalce engines.

sounds interesting, so the engines and some equipment could be installed now, after 3 years of pier side - and we all didn't see this ...

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Nope nobody saw a thing. Not me not you nobody!
Does not mean nothing happened. Only time will tell and like I said..We shall see!

Hey would'nt we all be a surprized if the PLAN unvieled the Varyag as an LPH type ship loaded down with JZ-10's and Ka-28's. ..well it could happen!

well, ists only a possibility, not more - but the Varjag could carrie more as only JZ-10's and Ka-28's;
didn't the PLA Naval Air Force (PLANAF UI unit) have some Su-30MK2 as part of the Ease Sea Fleet? The 24 examples of the upgraded Su-30MKK2 variant should be enough to arm the Varjag.

And about the J-10: didn't we have seen some pix of J-10, including a arresting hook? May be the J 10 is also designed to be used from carriers ....

Sczepan said:

well, ists only a possibility, not more - but the Varjag could carrie more as only JZ-10's and Ka-28's;
didn't the PLA Naval Air Force (PLANAF UI unit) have some Su-30MK2 as part of the Ease Sea Fleet? The 24 examples of the upgraded Su-30MKK2 variant should be enough to arm the Varjag.

And about the J-10: didn't we have seen some pix of J-10, including a arresting hook? May be the J 10 is also designed to be used from carriers ....

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well first of all, those "pics" whit J-10 carrying arrestor hook are clear photoshoped ones...I once read an article about F-16 and how it isen't suitable for carrier operations due it's airintake arragment. Now i don't have much knowlidge on airframes so if anyone have more info about that, please enlighten me. But anyway as i was saying J-10 have quite similar arragment than F-16 so thats makes me doupt that the chinese fighter might never be usefull as a carrier plane.

The Su-30 in otherhand is quite useless as a carrier plane due the ski-jump and the handycaps of STOBAR arragment. To my knowlidge the aircraft taking of from the ski-jump needs power-to-weigt-ratio to be over 1. Thats limits greatly the suitable planes and their capapilityes. SU-30 wouldn't be able to use it's prominent Air-to-groud ordnance and not able to carry so much fuel that orginal two-seat flanker concept, the ultra-long range interceptor concept would'nt be an option either.

well first of all, those "pics" whit J-10 carrying arrestor hook are clear photoshoped ones...I once read an article about F-16 and how it isen't suitable for carrier operations due it's air intake arragment. Now I don't have much knowlidge on airframes so if anyone have more info about that, please enlighten me

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An F-16 landing gear and airframe are not suitable for carrier arrested landings. Carrier borne aircraft have strengthened landing gear and airframes. There is tremendous stress created when making an arrested landing. Therefore putting an arrestor hook on an aircraft does not make an aircraft capable of arrested landings.

As for the F-16 intake. The intakes on the old A-7 Cosair & F-8 Crusader was pretty low. They were great carrier aircraft.

Gollevainen said:

...
The Su-30 in otherhand is quite useless as a carrier plane due the ski-jump and the handycaps of STOBAR arragment.

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wait a moment, please:
as I know all the SU-30 variants have the same engines; also the Su-33 (Su-27K) which is a carrier-based variant that first flew in May 1985, and entered service in the Russian Navy in 1994. The air regiment comprising 24 fighters of the type was formed up on Russia's only operating aircraft carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov (which is simillar to Varjag). They all have 2 Lyulka AL-31 afterburning turbofans, only the weight of the SU-33 with a maxim of 30,000 kg is lighter as SU 30 MK I (maxim. 34,000 kg), but they normal have a weight of 25,670 kg. Also the normal payload (1,400 kg) seems to be simillar, the maxim payload at the carrier based SU-33 is smaller.
Source:

O.k., the lift and hanger needs folded wings (like the SU-33 have) to be used - but PLAN-pilots could use the deck of varjag for touch and go, landing and start operations and so to get experience and carrier licence. After that time it should be no problem to buy SU-33 from russia - or to modifi the Chinese licensed copy of Su-27SK, the J-11 (as J-11 C )
see .

Please, its only a possibility - but could be a realistic option;

bd popeye said:

...
The intakes on the old A-7 Cosair & F-8 Crusader was pretty low. They were great carrier aircraft.

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they used Catapults, so the engine don_t need so much power; thats why i vote for catapults at the angled deck of varjag. China could copy and develop the one of the Melbourne ....

Sczepan said:

wait a moment, please:
as I know all the SU-30 variants have the same engines; also the Su-33 (Su-27K) which is a carrier-based variant that first flew in May 1985, and entered service in the Russian Navy in 1994. The air regiment comprising 24 fighters of the type was formed up on Russia's only operating aircraft carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov (which is simillar to Varjag). They all have 2 Lyulka AL-31 afterburning turbofans, only the weight of the SU-33 with a maxim of 30,000 kg is lighter as SU 30 MK I (maxim. 34,000 kg), but they normal have a weight of 25,670 kg. Also the normal payload (1,400 kg) seems to be simillar, the maxim payload at the carrier based SU-33 is smaller.
....

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But my point was that whit ski-jump, THe Su-33 or Su-30 both cannot use their maxium playload...they are limited to basicly for AA armament...therefor there's no avantage whit Su-30 against the Su-33...

By the way has anyone got some up to date info of the Su-33KUb???

sorry for missunderstandig you, my english seems not to be the best one ....

Gollevainen said:

But my point was that whit ski-jump, THe Su-33 or Su-30 both cannot use their maxium playload...

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thats why i vote for catapults at the angled deck of varjag.
China could copy and develop the one of the Melbourne ....

btw.:

Chinese Military Forum said:

reportet:
F-8 Chinese fighter was reportedly shot off of a steam catapult
China has apparently been working on an aircraft carrier program since the early 1980s, and as part of this effort a F-8 Chinese fighter was reportedly shot off of a steam catapult at the Lushun naval base in 1987.

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could anybody tell us more about the story???

I am also interested in stuff about
1)

PLAN Project 9935 [Aircraft Carrier]FAS ...

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2)

PLAN Project 9985 Melbourne 48,0000 4 steam catapult...

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it sounds like phantasie or sf, but I should clear it up .....