tech demostrator or fully fledge prototype

latenlazy · Jun 30, 2011

MiG-29 said:
yeah but i meant for example

The Rafale A was fitted with the F-404 but the later Rafale C and M used the french engine.

Similar could be the J-20, it might use its WS-? and later the intended engines, the Rafale A was a proof of concept.

The EAP was more different, it was powered by Tornado engines but most of it was a Eurofighter.

The YF-22 carried the core engine F-119 and most of the basic configuration, they were tech demostrator not research aircraft.

the X-29 was a research aircraft and same was the X-31 but the EAP was, i do not see why people think is offensive to say the J-20 is a tech demostrator that might be refined and change like the EAP turned into the Eurofighter.

Again, there's a distinction between how different countries go about their design development processes. Trying to graft the process of one country's design and testing phase onto another is pretty pointless.

The French had the Rafale A with a different engine and called it a tech demonstrator/proof of concept. That may or may not (and I would argue isn't) the case for China. Either way, the distinction is nominal. The point is the J-20 seems to be designed for production, and is undergoing testing to fulfill that purpose.

MiG-29 · Jun 30, 2011

latenlazy said:
Again, there's a distinction between how different countries go about their design development processes. Trying to graft the process of one country's design and testing phase onto another is pretty pointless.

The French had the Rafale A with a different engine and called it a tech demonstrator/proof of concept. That may or may not (and I would argue isn't) the case for China. Either way, the distinction is nominal. The point is the J-20 seems to be designed for production, and is undergoing testing to fulfill that purpose.

yes but understand without supercruise and TVC nozzles, the jet might not have the real configuration a series production will have, the aircraft will need modifications, several years of test, so you might end up with an aircraft with truelly F-22 characteristics until 2020 or later

MiG-29 · Jun 30, 2011

Bltizo said:
Sigh, let me ask you this. Do you consider the Su-47 and Mig MFI to be technology demonstrators? Because when you say J-20 is a tech demonstrator those two aircraft, are what I compare it with in my mind.

At the end of the day we are going to say that a tech demonstrator is not meant for production while a prototype is. J-20 is meant for production. Bingo.

Tell me what makes you feel that jet has serial production feature?

tell me how long it will take to implement a TVC nozzles and supercruise?

when the final engine will be fitted?

what modification might add after the engines are fitted?

Blitzo · Jun 30, 2011

You know I'm not going to accept your answer to my question with further questions. So I'm still going to wait for your answer alright?

MiG-29 said:
Tell me what makes you feel that jet has serial production feature?

Serial production? I never said it was already ready for serial production but it will certainly be produced, unlike tech demonstrators.
It is impossible to judge what features show an aircraft is ready for serial production, and my belief that it is a prototype meant for production rather than a technology demonstrator like Su-47 and Mig MFI is based on the timeline we've been given, the PLAAF's past history, and last but not least what we've been hearing from the chinese BBS.

tell me how long it will take to implement a TVC nozzles and supercruise?

When the final engine will be fitted.

when the final engine will be fitted?

sometime beyond 2015, I'd believe.

what modification might add after the engines are fitted?

Anything from airframe to avionics, whatever. But they should already have compensated for that or at least forseen it so the time spent modifying and testing could be significantly shortened.

I've answered your questions now you answer mine.

latenlazy · Jun 30, 2011

MiG-29 said:
yes but understand without supercruise and TVC nozzles, the jet might not have the real configuration a series production will have, the aircraft will need modifications, several years of test, so you might end up with an aircraft with truelly F-22 characteristics until 2020 or later

Now you're getting sidetracked. Is your real point to say that the J-20 won't be ready until 2020?

Just because it does not have a TVC nozzle does not necessarily mean this plane cannot supercruise. Supercruise is dependent on the impulse of the exhaust and aerodynamic design, and not the amount of thrust the engine can generate. Furthermore, just because it does not have its final engines does not mean other features of the plane cannot be tested, including basic aerodynamic performance.

All planes need modifications during the prototype stage. That's the whole point of a prototype. Your claim that not having its intended engine will set back the plane's development significantly is unfounded. Introducing a new engine may or may not require additional modifications, but that is not a certainty, and it's unlikely that such modifications will require the many additional years that you're suggesting. Engine performance is only a subset of the different testing a prototype must undergo.

Furthermore, nothing excludes concurrent testing of both the airframe and the engine, which is likely what will happen if the engine isn't ready for installation. Finally, you're making an awfully big assumption that a new engine won't be installed sooner rather than later. It's only been half a year, and a lot can happen.

MiG-29 · Jun 30, 2011

Bltizo said:
You know I'm not going to accept your answer to my question with further questions. So I'm still going to wait for your answer alright?

Serial production? I never said it was already ready for serial production but it will certainly be produced, unlike tech demonstrators.
It is impossible to judge what features show an aircraft is ready for serial production, and my belief that it is a prototype meant for production rather than a technology demonstrator like Su-47 and Mig MFI is based on the timeline we've been given, the PLAAF's past history, and last but not least what we've been hearing from the chinese BBS.

When the final engine will be fitted.

sometime beyond 2015, I'd believe.

Anything from airframe to avionics, whatever. But they should already have compensated for that or at least forseen it so the time spent modifying and testing could be significantly shortened.

I've answered your questions now you answer mine.

The MiG-1.44 and SU-47 never were tech demostrators as you are thinking, the MiG-1.44 was called istrebitel for the 90s, so it supposed to enter production in 1990s, butr after the soviet union callapsed the russian cancelled the project, the Su-47 was a naval program, but never was the monies to carry out the program.

The PAK FA T-50 has nothing to do with the MiG-1.44 or Su-47 beyond it replaced them.

you can read paralay`s articles

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now can i take your word as official proof that today`s J-20 is the real deal?

can you quote an articel claiming the J-20 only will fit the engines in 2015 and by 2018 will fly in series production?

latenlazy · Jun 30, 2011

MiG-29 said:
can you quote an articel claiming the J-20 only will fit the engines in 2015 and by 2018 will fly in series production?

Can you quote one that says it won't?

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"In November 2009 He Weirong (何为荣), deputy commander of the Chinese air force, confirmed that "intense" research and development work on the fifth generation stealth fighter was ongoing. Being developed by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation and Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, the aircraft has not yet been given a designation but is expected to be unveiled within the next 5 years and would enter service by 2015, according to Weirong.[5] Another source quotes Weirong as saying the aircraft would enter service within 8 years, giving possible in-service dates of 2017 to 2019.[7][8]
A U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency official commenting on Gen. He's claims stated the DIA believes a first flight of the J-XX "will occur in the next few years", but it is also believed that operational deployment of the fighter "in meaningful numbers" will not take place "for about 10 years."[9] U.S. Air Force and U.S. intelligence officials have stated their belief that China likely has all the resources, data and technology required to build a fifth generation fighter. However, doubts remain on whether China has enough knowledge in areas such as systems engineering, integration and production processes to build a fighter comparable to U.S. stealth designs which can also be produced in large numbers. It is speculated that the fighter may not be an "all-aspect" stealth design by some sources, for this reason.[10] The U.S. Department of Defense expects China to have a handful of fifth generation fighters in service between 2020 and 2025, according to statements made by U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates in July 2009.[11] However, a year later, in May 2010, this statement was rebuffed by the US' prime intelligence producer—Ulman stating that Chinese 5th generation fighter jets will be expected around 2018.[2] In 2011 Gates changed his position to state that the Chinese may have 50 stealth fighters by 2020 and a couple of hundred by 2025 while the United States would have 850 and 1500 by those dates.[12]"

In short, not even the officials know.

MiG-29 · Jun 30, 2011

latenlazy said:
Now you're getting sidetracked. Is your real point to say that the J-20 won't be ready until 2020?

Just because it does not have a TVC nozzle does not necessarily mean this plane cannot supercruise. Supercruise is dependent on the impulse of the exhaust and aerodynamic design, and not the amount of thrust the engine can generate. Furthermore, just because it does not have its final engines does not mean other features of the plane cannot be tested, including basic aerodynamic performance.

All planes need modifications during the prototype stage. That's the whole point of a prototype. Your claim that not having its intended engine will set back the plane's development significantly is unfounded. Introducing a new engine may or may not require additional modifications, but that is not a certainty, and it's unlikely that such modifications will require the many additional years that you're suggesting. Engine performance is only a subset of the different testing a prototype must undergo.

Furthermore, nothing excludes concurrent testing of both the airframe and the engine, which is likely what will happen if the engine isn't ready for installation. Finally, you're making an awfully big assumption that a new engine won't be installed sooner rather than later. It's only been half a year, and a lot can happen.

TVC nozzles are very related to the ability to supercruise if it fits 2D nozzles, if it fits 3D then supercruise is not an issue, but in my opinion it does not have supercruise ability now.

the Americans tested the YF-22 with supercruise and the YF-23 too with the final engines, the J-20 i do ot think at this moment has the WS-15.

Then the final configuration will fly in my opinion near 2020.

It takes years to perfectionate TVC and create supercruising engines

MiG-29 · Jun 30, 2011

latenlazy said:
Can you quote one that says it won't?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"In November 2009 He Weirong (何为荣), deputy commander of the Chinese air force, confirmed that "intense" research and development work on the fifth generation stealth fighter was ongoing. Being developed by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation and Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, the aircraft has not yet been given a designation but is expected to be unveiled within the next 5 years and would enter service by 2015, according to Weirong.[5] Another source quotes Weirong as saying the aircraft would enter service within 8 years, giving possible in-service dates of 2017 to 2019.[7][8]
A U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency official commenting on Gen. He's claims stated the DIA believes a first flight of the J-XX "will occur in the next few years", but it is also believed that operational deployment of the fighter "in meaningful numbers" will not take place "for about 10 years."[9] U.S. Air Force and U.S. intelligence officials have stated their belief that China likely has all the resources, data and technology required to build a fifth generation fighter. However, doubts remain on whether China has enough knowledge in areas such as systems engineering, integration and production processes to build a fighter comparable to U.S. stealth designs which can also be produced in large numbers. It is speculated that the fighter may not be an "all-aspect" stealth design by some sources, for this reason.[10] The U.S. Department of Defense expects China to have a handful of fifth generation fighters in service between 2020 and 2025, according to statements made by U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates in July 2009.[11] However, a year later, in May 2010, this statement was rebuffed by the US' prime intelligence producer—Ulman stating that Chinese 5th generation fighter jets will be expected around 2018.[2] In 2011 Gates changed his position to state that the Chinese may have 50 stealth fighters by 2020 and a couple of hundred by 2025 while the United States would have 850 and 1500 by those dates.[12]"

In short, not even the officials know.

i agree, but as i said it can be 2020 or 2018 or 2023, because expecting the jet to fly in 2018 does not mean it will, it is just a plan projection, the americans know by experience it will take then at least a decade to perfectionate the design to make it like the operational F-22

latenlazy · Jun 30, 2011

MiG-29 said:
TVC nozzles are very related to the ability to supercruise if it fits 2D nozzles, if it fits 3D then supercruise is not an issue, but in my opinion it does not have supercruise ability now.

You're missing the point. If the current engine can supercruise (note, supercruise is not thrust dependent), they can test the airframe's supercruise performance. The behavior of the airframe during supercruise isn't going to change because they've installed TVC. We don't even know what engine it's using, so your opinion is as good as mine.

the Americans tested the YF-22 with supercruise and the YF-23 too with the final engines, the J-20 i do ot think at this moment has the WS-15.

Yay America. Sadly, we can't extrapolate the development path of the J-20 using the YF-22 or YF-23. That's like trying to use the F-16 to figure out the development path of the J-10. There is little relation whatsoever. The J-20 will get the WS-15 when it gets the WS-15. Can it test supercruise without the WS-15? If it has an engine with a high enough exhaust impulse it can. If it doesn't it can't, but the point is we don't know and uninformed speculation won't get us anywhere.

Then the final configuration will fly in my opinion near 2020.

It takes years to perfectionate TVC and create supercruising engines

*rollseyes*
China has been working on TVC and the WS-15 for years now. Your point?

tech demostrator or fully fledge prototype

latenlazy

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MiG-29

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Blitzo

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latenlazy

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MiG-29

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MiG-29

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latenlazy

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