Taiwan Military News Thread

[Vlad Plasmius]

adeptitus

The perils of buying arms from the US is getting entangled in the approval process, and being denied a larger stockpile of parts and munitions.

It's not just that, domestic politics has played a significant role as well.

Taiwan cannot perpetually depend on the US for its defense needs. They either need to find ways to source weapons from alternate countries (very difficult), or attempt to reverse-engineer, license, or develop some of the systems domestically, which is very costly but at least there would be fewer restrictions.

Taiwan's shipyards and aerospace industry is perfectly capable of producing frigate-sized warships and assembling mid-tech combat aircraft. But I don't see the political will to spend the kind of resources needed for major domestic defense industry growth. With the recent passage of social security benefits the government will have even less $ to spend on defense. =/

Well, I think domestic development would get more support from the KMT. I believe a recent arms procurement for domestic weapons was passed with no objections from the KMT that I'm aware.

Of course, the problem is their industry has not been as heavily invested in as China's, meaning they'll likely be behind China and probably not as advanced as what they can get from us. However, it will be far better for them logistically as they can replenish their equipment and repair it quicker than if they were relying on us during a conflict.

 

[Deleted member 675]

Well, I think domestic development would get more support from the KMT. I believe a recent arms procurement for domestic weapons was passed with no objections from the KMT that I'm aware.

Hehehe, did you hear about the shit-storm kicked up by the KMT and their buddies in the legislative over the KH-6 FAC programme? I think they delayed it by like 2-3 years because of arguments over the tendering process - they refused to authorise production funds for the main batch until the official in question had been disciplined to their liking. In some respects the way they kept giving orders to the Ministry of Defence was quite comical.

Anyway, the KMT followed what they thought was a populist line by opposing arms buys on cost grounds. Then they realised how pissed Washington was getting and that the public didn't like the constant delays. So they've back-peddled a bit - one will have to see if they do a complete U-turn in the 2008 budget. That said if they win both elections next year, I can promise that any outstanding items offered by the US will be approved very quickly (the only exception being if the SSK programme becomes unworkable).

 

[adeptitus]

Taiwan should buy all its defense needs from the United States, just to keep the friendship and trust between the two states. In the future and as China continues to grow, Taiwan can forget about attempting to beat China in the arms-race, and instead rely on the American umbrella for defense.

There's a saying that others only come to your assistance at their convenience.

If the Israelis had became dependent on UK or US for its defense, it'd have ceased to exist decades ago. No, I think Taiwan is better off spending billions of dollars to build up its own arms industry like Israel and South Africa. Yes there will be some systems that are just too costly to develop domestically and you're better off importing, but I say import what you must, but build whatever you can at home if possible.

Taiwan's budget hasn't been squeezed by the recent social security legislation from what I understand. The requested defence budget is set to increase to about $10 billion or so for 2008 - there is consensus to raise it to and keep it at about 3% of GDP, maybe 3.5% if necessary. That should be a sustainable level for the foreseeable future.

Since this is a military forum I'll keep the SS discussion short.

If SS was funded wholly by contributors (like 401K or IRA in US), I'd agree with you. However if I read the news correctly, SS will cover ~3.5 million people without pension, and the government is picking up 40% of the bill.

I believe the long term implications will be that with government-funded SS, there will be less incentive to offer private pensions. The number of people that will depend on government SS will grow, and the government's contribution into the program will become bigger. Then you add TW's declining birth rate and a future upside-down pyramid demographics:

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I hope you understand my point of view on this matter.

Of course, the problem is their industry has not been as heavily invested in as China's, meaning they'll likely be behind China and probably not as advanced as what they can get from us. However, it will be far better for them logistically as they can replenish their equipment and repair it quicker than if they were relying on us during a conflict.

Yes, but I think it'd be easier for TW to license defense technologies from the West. I believe TW's defense industry is perfectly capable of producing mid-level tech combat aircraft today, such as an improved IDF (ADF?) or something comparable to early F-16A/B's. Had sufficient funding been provided, products like the new engine and LIFT trainer variant would've been ready by now. Instead, AIDC was given barely couple million dollars over 7 year period to develop upgrade systems.

 

[Deleted member 675]

I hope you understand my point of view on this matter.

Anyone can speculate about the future. So many developed/near-developed countries have problems over SS, age, etc. Even China's going to have demographic problems. But publications like The Economist have run many articles on how to address these problems - it can be done.

All I'm saying is that Taiwan's defence budget shouldn't have to suffer in the foreseeable future.

 

[Vlad Plasmius]

Yes there will be some systems that are just too costly to develop domestically and you're better off importing, but I say import what you must, but build whatever you can at home if possible.

Are you suggesting building most of the hardware and maybe simpler systems in Taiwan, but import the advanced stuff from us? That would probably be a good idea.

 

[Pointblank]

Are you suggesting building most of the hardware and maybe simpler systems in Taiwan, but import the advanced stuff from us? That would probably be a good idea.

The problem becomes then such high tech components then fall under strict technology restriction controls by the USA. The US can simply embargo or refuse to sell such items to Taiwan.

 

[adeptitus]

The problem becomes then such high tech components then fall under strict technology restriction controls by the USA. The US can simply embargo or refuse to sell such items to Taiwan.

South Africa was under embargo for decades, had smaller defense budget than Taiwan, but that didn't stop their industry from developing military hardware and engaging in covert joint-projects with Israel. Several European countries even selected Denel's Umkhonto-IR VLS SAM system for their ships. Had their defense industry not suffered a brain-drain in recent years, I think they'd have continued to produce good quality armaments.

Taiwan's defense industry is perfectly capable of producing its own armored vehicles, ships, and planes. If there's something that they cannot produce locally, they might be able to obtain the subcomponents from foreign suppliers. But I feel that the government is tilted toward buying everything foreign with the assumption that whatever that comes from US/Europe/Japan is always superior. What's the point of producing so many engineers? Send them all to perform maintenance work on imported stuff? Look at the Mao Kong Gondola system, did they even bother to check the weather difference between Taiwan and France before importing it without a ventilation system?

 

[Deleted member 675]

I seriously doubt they'll be getting Apaches

I checked the records, and I found that Washington approved the sale of the AH-64D in May 2002. Afterwards it became an issue of Taiwan and Boeing negotiating the deal.

So we shall have to see what is included in Taiwan's 2008 defence budget. I think there will be a request for 30 AH-64Ds and maybe a number of UH-60s - the accident earlier this year will make it easier to get an order for transport helicopters passed in the legislative.

 

[Clouded Leopard]

KMT legislators angered by rumors of AEGIS purchase

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DETAILS: Su Chi and Shuai Hua-min said they had not been informed ahead of time that a visit to the US would include a trip to a major shipyard

AGENCIES, TAIPEI
Tuesday, Aug 07, 2007, Page 2

Two Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) lawmakers said yesterday that they would turn down a Ministry of National Defense invitation to visit the US to avoid appearing to endorse the ministry's plans to procure US weapons systems.

The Chinese-language United Daily News reported yesterday that Taiwan intends to buy at least six AEGIS-equipped destroyers from the US at a cost of more than US$4.6 billion.

The navy could buy an additional two destroyers on top of the initial six, the report said.

The article said that Deputy Defense Minister Ko Cheng-heng (柯承亨) and Chief of the General Staff Chen Yung-kang (陳永康) would travel to the US later this month to try to secure the deal.

KMT Legislator Su Chi (蘇起) said he would boycott the trip, which was proposed prior to rumors of the procurement appearing in the press, on the grounds that the ministry had altered the itinerary to include a visit to a shipyard where AEGIS-equipped warships are built and because legislators had not previously been informed that Ko and his aides would accompany them.

Su complained that agreeing to visit the shipyard would be tantamount to endorsing the procurement of the AEGIS-equipped Arleigh Burke-class destroyers. He also said that ministry officials would outnumber legislators on the trip.

Likening the ministry to "a magician who produces rabbits and doves from his top hat without notice," Su said he wondered what else the ministry would do once the legislators, who are from across the political spectrum, were in the US.

KMT Legislator Shuai Hua-min (帥化民) said Taiwan did not need AEGIS-equipped warships, adding that the Navy could not afford the ships and lacked the ability to maintain them.

Moreover, Shuai said, AEGIS-equipped warships were designed to execute long-range anti-missile missions over distances exceeding 900km, far larger than the extent of Taiwan's territorial waters.

The defense ministry declined to comment on the report.

The AEGIS air defense radar and weapons system is capable of tracking and attacking dozens of missiles, aircraft and ships all at once.

The US, the nation's main arms supplier, in 2001 put off a request from Taipei to buy four Arleigh Burke-class destroyers equipped with the AEGIS system, but kept the option open should China pose a sufficient threat.

However, Washington has become increasingly frustrated by Taiwanese lawmakers' long delay in passing a budget to buy key weapons platforms.

It consequently declined to approve a request last year by Taipei to buy 66 F-16 fighter jets unless the budget was passed.

Taiwan's legislature in June approved only a fraction of the stalled budget to buy the US weapons, which include 12 P-3C anti-submarine planes and upgraded PAC II anti-missile systems.

 

[Deleted member 675]

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A fact-finding delegation composed of members of the Taiwan legislature (LY) will visit Washington this week to meet with U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) officials seeking information about the status of a 2001 Bush administration offer to sell Taiwan eight diesel submarines.

With an upcoming presidential election in both Taiwan and the U.S., there are fears in Taiwan that the Bush offer will be withdrawn after 2008. The legislature has been accused of delaying passage of the budget for the submarine program for political reasons. Legislators with pro-China sentiments and anti-Chen Shui-bian — the current Taiwan president — agendas have been active in killing a special budget for submarines first proposed in 2004 more than 60 times.

The result has been bitter feelings on both sides of the issue, with Pentagon officials accusing Taiwan of not being serious about defense and Taiwan legislators accusing the DoD of forcing Taiwan to buy overpriced unwanted military equipment.

The upcoming trip is being described by some officials in Taipei as largely unwanted in the halls of the Pentagon. The delegation will not be met by Defense Secretary Robert Gates but rather will have a few short meetings with minor officials. Taiwan delegations to the U.S. have been largely ignored officially by the U.S. government because of the quasi-diplomatic status Taiwan suffers from since the U.S. switched diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing.

A U.S. Pentagon official has acknowledged the trip and flatly denied DoD disapproval for the trip: “DoD welcomes this trip. This fact-finding trip should help clarify how the USG plans to proceed with the program and allow the LY members to see the various options from the defense industries. Hopefully, it will help manage expectation and provide the LY members the opportunity to gain insights on the cost.

“The USG estimate for the subs is based on the worst-case scenario where the U.S. has to design and build the subs from scratch. The most likely scenario is a joint effort, where a U.S. defense company builds the subs using an existing, proven design of a foreign diesel submarine. This option will cost less in terms of both time and money.”

However, there is still resistance to the submarine sale among LY members with pro-China sentiments who have turned the entire offer into a political football over the past six years. “It remains to be seen if better understanding results in better support for the subs in the LY,” the official cautioned.