This is exactly right. Until the troops are actually used we do not know the actual effectiveness.
Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
- Thread starter Gollevainen
- Start date
This is exactly right. Until the troops are actually used we do not know the actual effectiveness.
"Wen Lii, director of the Matsu Islands chapter of the Democratic Progressive Party (DPP), was conscripted when he turned 24 in 2013. He served for a year and learned how to drive M60 tanks, which in the event of a Chinese invasion are supposed to repel Chinese troops on the beaches. Lii, who is now a reservist, said that there was no tactical combat training or maneuvers, however: His job was simply to teach new recruits how to drive.
At the moment, reservists are called up every two years for a maximum of seven days, and often this is just on paper. Lii said that he had only been required to turn up twice, for one day. "Personally I wanted to spend longer time for training," he said, before welcoming the fact that the government wanted to reform the army reserve by introducing two weeks' training per year from 2022 onwards he said. Taiwan's Ministry of Defense always says they have no problem whatsoever, everything is working, everything is fine. Even when reports surface that is not the case. They do not want to face the reality.
He attributed this to the fact that defense ministers in Taiwan were often generals and this led to problems of accountability.
"Most military leaders would not like civilians to be Minister of Defense," agreed Michael Tsai, who was a rare exception. The next civilian after him to become defense minister had to step down after less than a week in office after being accused of plagiarism."
_
Even as the military refits itself with flashy U.S. arms purchases, such as M1 Abrams tanks and F-16V fighter jets, its front-line units are hollowed out, and the entire reserve system is so dysfunctional that few experts or serving military personnel believe it can make a real military contribution in the event of a war. These problems are well documented but continue to be downplayed, if not outright ignored, by Taiwan’s political leadership—and there is no clear plan to solve the crisis.
.
According to a Taiwanese army lieutenant colonel in active service, who asked for only his last name, Lin, to be used, all the army’s front-line combat units he knows of—including armor, mechanized infantry, and artillery troops—currently have effective manpower levels of between 60 and 80 percent. This figure is consistent with Taiwanese media reports, which cite MND figures provided to Taiwan’s parliament, the Legislative Yuan, acknowledging that few front-line units have more than 80 percent of their positions filled.
“That number might not seem so bad until you realize it means at least a third of your tanks are useless in a war because there’s no one to man them,” said Lin, who most recently served as a battalion commander within one of army’s armor brigades.
For some years, before 2017, the term of conscription service in Taiwan was just a year, which was already short compared with South Korea’s 18-22 months, depending on the military branch, or Israel’s 32 months. Most officers felt that the single year of service wasn’t enough for the military to utilize draftees’ full potential but enough to at least turn a recruit into an average soldier.
At the moment, reservists are called up every two years for a maximum of seven days, and often this is just on paper. Lii said that he had only been required to turn up twice, for one day. "Personally I wanted to spend longer time for training," he said, before welcoming the fact that the government wanted to reform the army reserve by introducing two weeks' training per year from 2022 onwards he said. Taiwan's Ministry of Defense always says they have no problem whatsoever, everything is working, everything is fine. Even when reports surface that is not the case. They do not want to face the reality.
He attributed this to the fact that defense ministers in Taiwan were often generals and this led to problems of accountability.
"Most military leaders would not like civilians to be Minister of Defense," agreed Michael Tsai, who was a rare exception. The next civilian after him to become defense minister had to step down after less than a week in office after being accused of plagiarism."
_
Even as the military refits itself with flashy U.S. arms purchases, such as M1 Abrams tanks and F-16V fighter jets, its front-line units are hollowed out, and the entire reserve system is so dysfunctional that few experts or serving military personnel believe it can make a real military contribution in the event of a war. These problems are well documented but continue to be downplayed, if not outright ignored, by Taiwan’s political leadership—and there is no clear plan to solve the crisis.
.
According to a Taiwanese army lieutenant colonel in active service, who asked for only his last name, Lin, to be used, all the army’s front-line combat units he knows of—including armor, mechanized infantry, and artillery troops—currently have effective manpower levels of between 60 and 80 percent. This figure is consistent with Taiwanese media reports, which cite MND figures provided to Taiwan’s parliament, the Legislative Yuan, acknowledging that few front-line units have more than 80 percent of their positions filled.
“That number might not seem so bad until you realize it means at least a third of your tanks are useless in a war because there’s no one to man them,” said Lin, who most recently served as a battalion commander within one of army’s armor brigades.
For some years, before 2017, the term of conscription service in Taiwan was just a year, which was already short compared with South Korea’s 18-22 months, depending on the military branch, or Israel’s 32 months. Most officers felt that the single year of service wasn’t enough for the military to utilize draftees’ full potential but enough to at least turn a recruit into an average soldier.
Thank you for writing this. As a Taiwanese, I thought it was quite like the CCP to take advantage of the news, and spin it into something that supports their own pro unification agenda.
But like the comment I'm replying to, I'm not even sure if Taiwan's military will actually fare better if armed combat does break out. The Tsai administration has taken great strides to improve the military in terms of buying a ton of arms from the U.S., but shorter conscriptions, training time, and low birth rates would mean fewer people to man the weapons.
A popular yet cynical explanation as to why these Taiwanese soldiers dislike front-line units simply postulates a common aversion to tougher training and combat duty. But interviews with several enlisted ranks painted a more complex picture. Most complained that the food and living conditions left much to be desired—front-line soldiers must split their time between bases and on field exercises. That, on top of the fact they have far more weapons, vehicles, and equipment to clean and maintain, means these posts are perceived as more work for little reward. The existing shortages also cause an even heavier burden of work on the soldiers left—prompting more of them to put in for transfers.
"The military really wasn't popular among my generation." An army conscript died in 2013 due to excessive physical activity as punishment, which I heard was a pretty common situation among draftees before this particular news broke out. Morale was really low then, as many viewed conscription as a barrier to advancing their own careers out of college graduation, and would rather do other types of conscriptions after basic training. I'm not sure if it's the same for later generations, just citing what I've heard from my male friends, but I would assume it's the same.
On the other hand, a lot of military personnel are very pro-unification. I'm not entirely sure what the reasons are, there are a lot of historical reasons. From my own observations and stories I've heard from my indigenous friends: one of the reasons is that a lot of the recruits are indigenous peoples. A majority of Taiwan's Indigenous peoples are from pro-China counties and cities, but that could change with my generation, who are more prominently pro-Taiwan or pro-status-quo-let's-keep-everything-as-is-for-now
As in many foreign armed forces where over-representation of ethnic minorities is not unheard of (e.g., African-Americans in the US military), Taiwan’s Aborigines, now a de facto recruitment target group, are over-represented in its military (Source)
This post ended up a bit long, but TLDR: Just because Taiwan has bought a ton of arms from the U.S., we can't truly say we'd fare better than Afghanistan due to a ton of local and systematic issues in the military and society here.
from:
But like the comment I'm replying to, I'm not even sure if Taiwan's military will actually fare better if armed combat does break out. The Tsai administration has taken great strides to improve the military in terms of buying a ton of arms from the U.S., but shorter conscriptions, training time, and low birth rates would mean fewer people to man the weapons.
A popular yet cynical explanation as to why these Taiwanese soldiers dislike front-line units simply postulates a common aversion to tougher training and combat duty. But interviews with several enlisted ranks painted a more complex picture. Most complained that the food and living conditions left much to be desired—front-line soldiers must split their time between bases and on field exercises. That, on top of the fact they have far more weapons, vehicles, and equipment to clean and maintain, means these posts are perceived as more work for little reward. The existing shortages also cause an even heavier burden of work on the soldiers left—prompting more of them to put in for transfers.
"The military really wasn't popular among my generation." An army conscript died in 2013 due to excessive physical activity as punishment, which I heard was a pretty common situation among draftees before this particular news broke out. Morale was really low then, as many viewed conscription as a barrier to advancing their own careers out of college graduation, and would rather do other types of conscriptions after basic training. I'm not sure if it's the same for later generations, just citing what I've heard from my male friends, but I would assume it's the same.
On the other hand, a lot of military personnel are very pro-unification. I'm not entirely sure what the reasons are, there are a lot of historical reasons. From my own observations and stories I've heard from my indigenous friends: one of the reasons is that a lot of the recruits are indigenous peoples. A majority of Taiwan's Indigenous peoples are from pro-China counties and cities, but that could change with my generation, who are more prominently pro-Taiwan or pro-status-quo-let's-keep-everything-as-is-for-now
As in many foreign armed forces where over-representation of ethnic minorities is not unheard of (e.g., African-Americans in the US military), Taiwan’s Aborigines, now a de facto recruitment target group, are over-represented in its military (Source)
This post ended up a bit long, but TLDR: Just because Taiwan has bought a ton of arms from the U.S., we can't truly say we'd fare better than Afghanistan due to a ton of local and systematic issues in the military and society here.
from:
[–]tempest51 78 points 2 days ago
"Also did my service a few years back, asked my CO what we'd do if the Mainlanders really invaded. He said "just swap the badge on your cap."
I don't know how truthful these people's testimonies are but I would be really worried if I was one of the military or civilian leaders in Taiwan if this is the kind of self-defeating mantra is what's being given to some of their troops. Their force is already suffering from low moral, low retention rate and most of all the enthusiasm and willingness of their young people to sign up to fight a potential war against their brethren from the mainland.
Politicians will always try to dress up and put a lipstick on a pig when at the end of the day it's still a darn f..king pig. Perhaps, the deranged Jai Hind can make up for the manpower shortfall within the Taiwanese military. After all, I tend to see them populate in masse every single Taiwan military exercise video or anti-China rants on YouTube where they always delight on shitting on the PLA/China's supposed military deficiencies.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
I still believe China does not have enough LST,LSM Landing boat It is mystery to me as to why they don't start building this boat As they have the capacity and money to do it. There are hundred of inland shipyard that can built this boats Anyway new post from GT
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PLA uses large civilian ferry ship for vehicle transport in cross-sea landing drills for 1st time
By
Published: Aug 19, 2021 08:29 PM
A Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) amphibious unit recently conducted a series of cross-sea landing drills, in which the troops for the first time used a 10,000 ton-class civilian ferry ship instead of previously used thousands ton-class civilian vessels, with analysts saying on Thursday it could provide a good addition to transporting troops on a large scale in amphibious landing missions.
An armored vehicle unit of an amphibious combined arms brigade affiliated with the PLA 73rd Group Army recently used a civilian port and a civilian ferry ship in the cross-sea, long-distance troop transport exercises, China Central Television (CCTV) reported on Wednesday.
It is common that the PLA makes use of civilian ferry ships for similar exercises. But this time, the ship used was a large one with a displacement of more than 10,000 tons, instead of smaller, thousands ton-class ones, drill participant Staff Sergeant Wang Hua was quoted as saying.
More than a dozen types of vehicles, including self-propelled howitzers, amphibious armored vehicles and military trucks were loaded into the Bohai Pearl ferry ship, CCTV reported, noting that the drills also simulated hostile ground and aerial attacks as well as hostile satellite and drone reconnaissance during the loading process.
Owned by Bohai Ferry Group, the Bohai Pearl ferry ship has a displacement of 24,000 tons, with a length of 164 meters and width of 25 meters, and can carry more than 300 vehicles in three vehicle decks, according to the company's website.
The exercises lasted four days, and laid down the foundation for the troops' systematic cross-sea and multidimensional maneuvering in the future, the CCTV report said.
The use of large ferry ships is a good addition to transporting troops on a large scale in amphibious landing missions, a Chinese military expert who requested anonymity told the Global Times on Thursday.
In a large-scale amphibious landing operation, landing troops will likely take specially designed, military-grade landing ships in initial waves of landing, but the number of those ships remains limited compared to civilian ferry ships, the expert said, noting that once sea lanes and landing zones become secure, civilian ferry ships would join the transport.
On Tuesday, the PLA Eastern Theater Command dispatched warships, anti-submarine warfare aircraft and fighter jets in maritime and aerial areas near the southwest and southeast directions of the Taiwan island for military exercises including joint live-fire assaults.
Analysts said at that time that the Tuesday exercises practiced a step ahead of the amphibious landing operation, which is the seizure of air superiority and control of sea.
This is the boat would be ideal for Taiwan crossing
The boat adopts a straight-through deck type, and the superstructure such as the bridge is located on the starboard side, forming a two-story long deckhouse. The vehicle deck is unified with the upper deck. The bow is partially double-body structure with the first door in the middle. The bow of the ship is naturally inclined to the waterline.
The 074A landing craft was developed by the Chinese Navy from the Type 074 ("Yuhai" class) landing craft. It uses double-head pressure wave, longitudinal flow wave-eliminating, double-flip linear design and open-through straight deck with double sections. The island side deckhouse on the right side of the ramp, the dual-machine, double-propeller, and double-rudder landing craft driven by the diesel engine. The 074A has a landing load capacity of 70 and a fleet of three 96-type tanks. The 074A landing craft uses a 12V20/27 diesel engine with a rated power of 1200 kW. The power station uses a TBD234V6 diesel engine and two 286-4SA95-Z generators with a rated power of 150 kW.
The total length of the boat is 63 meters, the width is 10.8 meters, the depth is 4.8 meters, the full displacement is 696.5 tons, the maximum endurance is 1000 nautical miles, the maximum speed is not less than 17 knots, the maximum self-sustaining force is 10 days and nights, the wind resistance is 8 grades and can be sailing normally in grade 5 sea conditions. There are 27 staff members, including 6 officers. The weapon is configured for two parts of the boat.
The 074A type landing craft adopts a straight-through deck ship type. The superstructure such as the bridge is located on the starboard side, forming a two-story long deckhouse. The vehicle deck is unified with the upper deck. The bow is partially double-body structure, the middle is the first door, and the first deck of the ship is naturally inclined to the water line. The main anchor is provided on the first two sides of the ship (usually the landing craft is provided with a main anchor at the bow and a tail anchor at the stern). The ship uses a side stack, and the exhaust port is located at the lower part of the rear side near the water surface, which is very beneficial to its own infrared stealth. There is also equipment for the boat. Compared with the previous Chinese landing craft, the style of this type of boat is one of the new.
This class ship can transport 3 type 96 main battle tanks, or 59 modified tanks (3 units) and one infantry reinforcement platoon (70 people), or 63 type amphibious tanks, or 3 medium-caliber field guns (including tractors) ), or 6 infantry fighting vehicles, or 250 fully armed soldiers, of course, can also be mixed according to the needs of combat missions. The ship can also deliver landing combat ammunition, fuel or oil to the landing force when transporting other combat materials or performing a resupply mission.
The problem is that China's army has a large number of 072 series tank landing ships full of more than 4,000 tons, as well as a 073A type landing ship with a full load of 2,000 tons, and a 071 type integrated landing ship with a full load of 29,000 tons. Why should China build this less than 1,000 tons? This is because the ruler is long, the inch is short, and the purpose is different! The Type 074 landing craft can usually be used as a service vessel. The cargo compartment can transport people, transport vehicles, and transport other cargo. In the wartime, the second echelon and the third echelon can be transported ashore. Because of the small size, you can go to other big ships to go to places, such as walking between islands and reefs. Although the Chinese Navy has a special island reef supply ship, the tonnage is too large. There are large docks on the big island like Yongxing Island. However, more small island reefs do not have this condition at all, and small ships are still required for transport.
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PLA uses large civilian ferry ship for vehicle transport in cross-sea landing drills for 1st time
By
Published: Aug 19, 2021 08:29 PM
A Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) amphibious unit recently conducted a series of cross-sea landing drills, in which the troops for the first time used a 10,000 ton-class civilian ferry ship instead of previously used thousands ton-class civilian vessels, with analysts saying on Thursday it could provide a good addition to transporting troops on a large scale in amphibious landing missions.
An armored vehicle unit of an amphibious combined arms brigade affiliated with the PLA 73rd Group Army recently used a civilian port and a civilian ferry ship in the cross-sea, long-distance troop transport exercises, China Central Television (CCTV) reported on Wednesday.
It is common that the PLA makes use of civilian ferry ships for similar exercises. But this time, the ship used was a large one with a displacement of more than 10,000 tons, instead of smaller, thousands ton-class ones, drill participant Staff Sergeant Wang Hua was quoted as saying.
More than a dozen types of vehicles, including self-propelled howitzers, amphibious armored vehicles and military trucks were loaded into the Bohai Pearl ferry ship, CCTV reported, noting that the drills also simulated hostile ground and aerial attacks as well as hostile satellite and drone reconnaissance during the loading process.
Owned by Bohai Ferry Group, the Bohai Pearl ferry ship has a displacement of 24,000 tons, with a length of 164 meters and width of 25 meters, and can carry more than 300 vehicles in three vehicle decks, according to the company's website.
The exercises lasted four days, and laid down the foundation for the troops' systematic cross-sea and multidimensional maneuvering in the future, the CCTV report said.
The use of large ferry ships is a good addition to transporting troops on a large scale in amphibious landing missions, a Chinese military expert who requested anonymity told the Global Times on Thursday.
In a large-scale amphibious landing operation, landing troops will likely take specially designed, military-grade landing ships in initial waves of landing, but the number of those ships remains limited compared to civilian ferry ships, the expert said, noting that once sea lanes and landing zones become secure, civilian ferry ships would join the transport.
On Tuesday, the PLA Eastern Theater Command dispatched warships, anti-submarine warfare aircraft and fighter jets in maritime and aerial areas near the southwest and southeast directions of the Taiwan island for military exercises including joint live-fire assaults.
Analysts said at that time that the Tuesday exercises practiced a step ahead of the amphibious landing operation, which is the seizure of air superiority and control of sea.
This is the boat would be ideal for Taiwan crossing
Type 074A Yubei-class Landing Craft Utility
The 074A universal landing craft is loaded with more than 800 tons and can carry up to three 96-type tanks or six 63A-type amphibious tanks. The first boat was added to active service in 2003. At present, the boat is still under construction. According to the news, several ships were recently produced, mainly to replace the old boats of the Hong Kong Garrison.The boat adopts a straight-through deck type, and the superstructure such as the bridge is located on the starboard side, forming a two-story long deckhouse. The vehicle deck is unified with the upper deck. The bow is partially double-body structure with the first door in the middle. The bow of the ship is naturally inclined to the waterline.
The 074A landing craft was developed by the Chinese Navy from the Type 074 ("Yuhai" class) landing craft. It uses double-head pressure wave, longitudinal flow wave-eliminating, double-flip linear design and open-through straight deck with double sections. The island side deckhouse on the right side of the ramp, the dual-machine, double-propeller, and double-rudder landing craft driven by the diesel engine. The 074A has a landing load capacity of 70 and a fleet of three 96-type tanks. The 074A landing craft uses a 12V20/27 diesel engine with a rated power of 1200 kW. The power station uses a TBD234V6 diesel engine and two 286-4SA95-Z generators with a rated power of 150 kW.
The total length of the boat is 63 meters, the width is 10.8 meters, the depth is 4.8 meters, the full displacement is 696.5 tons, the maximum endurance is 1000 nautical miles, the maximum speed is not less than 17 knots, the maximum self-sustaining force is 10 days and nights, the wind resistance is 8 grades and can be sailing normally in grade 5 sea conditions. There are 27 staff members, including 6 officers. The weapon is configured for two parts of the boat.
The 074A type landing craft adopts a straight-through deck ship type. The superstructure such as the bridge is located on the starboard side, forming a two-story long deckhouse. The vehicle deck is unified with the upper deck. The bow is partially double-body structure, the middle is the first door, and the first deck of the ship is naturally inclined to the water line. The main anchor is provided on the first two sides of the ship (usually the landing craft is provided with a main anchor at the bow and a tail anchor at the stern). The ship uses a side stack, and the exhaust port is located at the lower part of the rear side near the water surface, which is very beneficial to its own infrared stealth. There is also equipment for the boat. Compared with the previous Chinese landing craft, the style of this type of boat is one of the new.
This class ship can transport 3 type 96 main battle tanks, or 59 modified tanks (3 units) and one infantry reinforcement platoon (70 people), or 63 type amphibious tanks, or 3 medium-caliber field guns (including tractors) ), or 6 infantry fighting vehicles, or 250 fully armed soldiers, of course, can also be mixed according to the needs of combat missions. The ship can also deliver landing combat ammunition, fuel or oil to the landing force when transporting other combat materials or performing a resupply mission.
The problem is that China's army has a large number of 072 series tank landing ships full of more than 4,000 tons, as well as a 073A type landing ship with a full load of 2,000 tons, and a 071 type integrated landing ship with a full load of 29,000 tons. Why should China build this less than 1,000 tons? This is because the ruler is long, the inch is short, and the purpose is different! The Type 074 landing craft can usually be used as a service vessel. The cargo compartment can transport people, transport vehicles, and transport other cargo. In the wartime, the second echelon and the third echelon can be transported ashore. Because of the small size, you can go to other big ships to go to places, such as walking between islands and reefs. Although the Chinese Navy has a special island reef supply ship, the tonnage is too large. There are large docks on the big island like Yongxing Island. However, more small island reefs do not have this condition at all, and small ships are still required for transport.
Bohai Ferry Group has 11 roro ships of this class, the first of which they purchased from Norway and the other 10 built domestically based on the first ship. Each ship is capable of holding 200 civilian cars in peace time. Military vehicles are larger than civilians cars but when these ships are used for military purposes they will have layout inside to allow them to pack vehicles tighter than they would normally when transporting civilian cars. In war times apparently they would be able to hold five brigades worth of combat vehicles between the 11 ships (only combat vehicles, no support and logistic vehicles like trucks which can come a shore slightly later).
Bohai Ferry Group has also got two even newer and bigger roro ships. If you add these two than the entire 13 ship would be able to project the combat elements of an entire corps across the straight in one go.
I dont really think a shit load of armor is needed to take Taiwan.
Toyota Camrys and Siennas would do, along with persistent drone CAS support, established in the form of kill boxes.
The key to the operation is shock and speed of the how control points can be controlled. These control points can be established North and South of Taiwanese cities along North -South highway.
I see vertical lift, UCAV, and small number of wheeled IFV as crucial to the role than mass of Type 15, 96 and 99.
It won't be all Type 99A and Type 04A deluxe heavy brigade, a corps would have medium and light brigades too and a medium brigade is like an US Stryker Brigade with 8x8 Type 08 and Type 11 and friends, plus a smattering of Type 92 and derived 6x6 vehicles. A medium brigade can move along road very quickly.
How bizzare, can't imagine going to a place to train and have no official contact with people on the ground.
One of my uni classmates had to do NS (came to Toronto for school), he really hated it because he got hurt, so never really talked about it.
I think PLA watchers are actually a little less taken in by the dog and pony tricks because PLA was behind for so long. That's why everyone is always looking for the tiniest of clues to find the reality.
Truth aside, the post that says Aboriginals are usually pro-China/Unification is kind of hilarious.
So the actual "Native Taiwanese" are pro-China and turned off by the DPP's "Taiwanese" messaging?
I always say that most WAS (White anglo saxon) people simply do not comprehend the cross-strait issue. Especially when they are all like "rah-rah Taiwan protects democracy".
If KMT was able to instill such a strong sense of Chinese identity in aboriginals, then I think most WASPs are not only up the creek without a paddle, but also no compass, map, or a clue.