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Mr T

Senior Member
You have it backwards. China owns the land. The people are free to leave if they wish. They stole the land because the KMT couldn't just admit clear defeat.

The majority of people living in Taiwan are descended from those that had lived there for centuries, well before the Chinese civil war. They didn't steal the land, they already owned it.

As for the KMT, if you've got a beef with them the sensible thing would be to pressure Xi to hold them account rather than treat them as China's best friends.

they would transition from being a part of a small inconsequential one into being part of the premier rising power of the world

Why does that matter? Are you saying that people in Iceland are unhappy because they're part of a tiny country? Obviously not. Being a part of a small country doesn't make you poor or sad, nor does being a citizen of a large country make you happy or rich. I guess some people have strange priorities if their happiness is measured only in patriotism or national pride.

It's quite frankly an unfairly good deal for them as they did nothing to contribute to China's rise

Apart from the hundreds of billions of dollars of investment (trillions?) Taiwanese poured into China, especially during the early years when it opened up.

they could enjoy all of it

Enjoy what? Lower living standards? Greater state surveillance?

Taiwanese aren't poor, they've got less inequality, better public healthcare and education, a cleaner environment, etc than Chinese have. There's nothing that Beijing would reasonably do to make Taiwanese better off than they are now.

Autonomy or independence (and freedom) are worthless weasel terms

Huh. Weird that China's resisted being incorporated by neighbouring states throughout history then. If their neighbours had handed out big bags of cash would Chinese have gladly surrendered their independence? I find that a curious argument to advance.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Congratulations on your newfound courage to finally engage a long-time superior debater.
The majority of people living in Taiwan are descended from those that had lived there for centuries, well before the Chinese civil war. They didn't steal the land, they already owned it.
Untrue. The Taiwanese aborigine population is estimated at only half a million on an island of 23 million Chinese speaking, obvious Han descendent people. Taiwan was also under Chinese control and ownership throughout much of history.

As for the KMT, if you've got a beef with them the sensible thing would be to pressure Xi to hold them account rather than treat them as China's best friends.
Don't care about them. They lost. That's history.

Why does that matter? Are you saying that people in Iceland are unhappy because they're part of a tiny country? Obviously not. Being a part of a small country doesn't make you poor or sad, nor does being a citizen of a large country make you happy or rich. I guess some people have strange priorities if their happiness is measured only in patriotism or national pride.
Some people want to be a part of something big and do big things with their lives as opposed to living a small and inconsequential, though comfortable existence. These people run the world. Pride and honor are the greatest luxuries in life; they are foreign to some.
Apart from the hundreds of billions of dollars of investment (trillions?) Taiwanese poured into China, especially during the early years when it opened up.
Private citizens and the government are totally different and even so, in any population, it is only a minority who can invest in businesses, much less those overseas. And while it is unfair that these people have, compared to the rest of the general Chinese population, done so little, probably had even a net negative effect on China's rise, and yet could become citizens equal to the most patriotic Chinese citizen alive, it's an unfairness I can live with because they are, at the end of the day, family.
Enjoy what? Lower living standards? Greater state surveillance?
What part of state surveillance scares you? I'm a law-abiding citizen and it doesn't scare me; to me, it means less potential for criminal activity that harms myself and my country. The PRC would not likely be interested in taking wealth away from the island at all; as a matter of fact, I would be surprised if they noticed any change in their regular apolitical lives.
Taiwanese aren't poor, they've got less inequality, better public healthcare and education, a cleaner environment, etc than Chinese have. There's nothing that Beijing would reasonably do to make Taiwanese better off than they are now.
When I said they were poor, I meant collectively too poor to muster up a mighty military. I know they are not poor per capita. The ROC is an old and mature society while the PRC is still growing quickly. Beijing could give the Taiwanese the thing they lack most, which is self-respect, pride, and honor, as I said, the greatest luxury of all, without which everything else in life is meaningless.
Huh. Weird that China's resisted being incorporated by neighbouring states throughout history then. If their neighbours had handed out big bags of cash would Chinese have gladly surrendered their independence? I find that a curious argument to advance.
Once united, China had the potential to become the most powerful civilization on earth. The pride and honor is already there. It makes no sense to be incorporated elsewhere. If China were a small powerless country without the hope to rising to the top of the world, and there were a large rising Asian power next to it stemming from the same ancestral roots, then incorporation would be a different story. I would surely consider it over being used as a political pawn by racist Western nations half the world away.
 
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Mr T

Senior Member
The Taiwanese aborigine population is estimated at only half a million on an island of 23 million Chinese speaking, obvious Han descendent people.

What does being descended from Han people have to do with anything? There are lots of Han people/descendants around the world. The PRC doesn't have any claim to the countries they live in because of their ancestory.

Taiwan was also under Chinese control and ownership throughout much of history.

It was also under Dutch and Japanese control at other times.

Some people want to be a part of something big

For some people their small countries are big enough.

Beijing could give the Taiwanese the thing they lack most, which is self-respect, pride, and honor

Dude, Taiwanese already have self-respect, pride and hour. They don't need to be a part of the PRC to have any of those things.
 

PiSigma

"the engineer"
How can people "steal" themselves? No one's forced to live on Taiwan, every citizen is free to move to mainland China if they wish. The fact that they don't want to leave suggests that they're quite happy with things the way they are. China doesn't own Taiwanese people like they're slaves who ran away.

Anyway, I didn't mention legitimacy, I asked whether holding free and fair elections was a threat to China, because I'm struggling to see what aggressive action Taiwan has taken towards China this year.



Bit difficult for Taiwan to join the PRC if Beijing won't agree to negotiations or provide a detailed explanation of what Taiwan's position in the PRC would be. Xi saying "HK+" is a meaningless statement given that he has started a process to terminate the end the One Country Two Systems relationship and made it clear that Beijing can change any agreement at any time, for any reason.

As things stand, Taiwanese would be giving up their independence just to avoid being casualties of an invasion, because even if Beijing agreed to give them "autonomy" that promise would be worthless, as it could be revoked without notice or consultation.
It's an example, free and fair elections don't mean much. Afterall free and fair elections gave us Morrison, trump, Trudeau, and Boris. And elections doesn't grant legitimacy, international recognition does.

What detailed explanation does ROC need on what it is like to join PRC? You make it sound like they need a special deal because it's a transaction between countries. ROC is not a country, so just like any entity that losses a civil war, it is just another province of China. I personally think 1c2s is dumb, should just reincorporate Taiwan back into Fujian province.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
What does being descended from Han people have to do with anything?
You just claimed that the majority of the Taiwanese are descendants of aborigines and I'm proving you ignorant.

There are lots of Han people/descendants around the world. The PRC doesn't have any claim to the countries they live in because of their ancestory.
I think that even you know how stupid this argument is. You can be a guest everywhere and that doesn't give you claim over the places you visited but if a piece of your house was taken, you have every right.

It was also under Dutch and Japanese control at other times.
And those times are over. It was Chinese territory before a very Chinese force was defeated by another Chinese force and squatted there. Taiwan was firmly under Chinese control, with the KMT being Chinese. At no time did they go to war to take the territory away from China; they stayed there under the guise that they are Chinese too and also staked claim to the rest of China. Now they can either finish what they started or they can disband and get out. Only war, if anything, can take Taiwan away from China.

For some people their small countries are big enough.
They can find one big enough in the middle of the ocean; they may not take any territory from China.

Dude, Taiwanese already have self-respect, pride and hour. They don't need to be a part of the PRC to have any of those things.
They clearly don't. Insulting one's own blood and ancestry is self-hatred and insecurity at its core, even if they lack the intellect to recognize it.
 
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PiSigma

"the engineer"
What does being descended from Han people have to do with anything? There are lots of Han people/descendants around the world. The PRC doesn't have any claim to the countries they live in because of their ancestory.



It was also under Dutch and Japanese control at other times.



For some people their small countries are big enough.



Dude, Taiwanese already have self-respect, pride and hour. They don't need to be a part of the PRC to have any of those things.
Majority of people in Taiwan are descendants of mainland Chinese people that migrated there from Fujian during the ming/Qing/ROC eras. Which means they are internal migrants, they are citizens of the whole country. They are moving from one province to another, in fact it is within one province of Fujian during majority of Qing dynasty. So yes, the national government do claim them as citizens.

Remember, if you are born in Australia or Canada, you are still a subject of the crown. And those are actual separate countries.

If some Chinese guy migrated to Singapore or UK, then is going to a foreign country.

Dutch and Japanese control is colonialism and shouldn't be recognized, since you know 21st century and all that.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
I personally think 1c2s is dumb, should just reincorporate Taiwan back into Fujian province.

So the reason for Taiwanese to agree to let Taiwan be incorporated into the PRC is that if they don't they'll eventually be squashed like a bug, and they can't expect any different treatment from a person living in Fujian?
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
So the reason for Taiwanese to agree to let Taiwan be incorporated into the PRC is that if they don't they'll eventually be squashed like a bug,
What? Only white people can use force to grab territory? LOL Chinese people not even to reclaim it?
and they can't expect any different treatment from a person living in Fujian?
Why should they, or any other Chinese person expect to be treated differently from a Chinese person in Fujian? That's like New Yorkers wanting different treatment/rights in the US from Texans. (Yes, I know there are mild differences in state laws, but generally, Americans have the same rights in every state.)
 

PiSigma

"the engineer"
So the reason for Taiwanese to agree to let Taiwan be incorporated into the PRC is that if they don't they'll eventually be squashed like a bug, and they can't expect any different treatment from a person living in Fujian?
Exactly, treated fairly and equally like any upstanding citizen in Fujian. I don't want them to be 2nd class citizens like Africans Americans in USA or Muslims in France, you know examples of beacons of freedom
 

vesicles

Colonel
I don't understand what you guys are arguing about. Constitution of Taiwan, the supreme law of the land, says Taiwan and the Mainland belong to the same country. As Taiwan is a land of law and order, every citizen of Taiwan automatically accepts that Taiwan is a part of China when they recognize and accept their citizenship of Taiwan/ ROC. This is a fact since this is specified in their Constitution, which supersedes every other law in the land and must be abided by every Taiwanese citizen.

If they don't want to accept it, they have two options: (1) change the constitution; (2) leave Taiwan. As they have done neither, they want to be Chinese deep in their hearts, no matter how much they deny it verbally. Since Taiwan is a democratic society, we must appreciate that this is their free will. Like everything else in this world, every decision has its consequences, its pros and cons. Similarly, Taiwanese's decision also has its consequences: keeping their constitution and staying as Chinese and continue to live their peaceful lives, vs becoming independent Taiwanese and risking open war with the Mainland. They have weighed their options and have decided not to change their constitution. In doing so, they also have decided to stay as Chinese, as opposed to becoming independent Taiwanese and at the same time bravely fighting the oppression from the Mainland. This is a fact. So why wasting so much time arguing about nothing?
 
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