Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Blitzo

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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thunderchief said:
Perry-class frigates were designed as "jack of all trades, master of none" ships, to operate independently in low to medium threat environments . As such they were armed to repel attacks from all three axis (AAW, ASuW and ASW ) but never excelled in any of them.
Those kind of ships are excellent for Third World navy, with similar opponents, because they would be cost effective (1 ship instead of 3 :D ). But, I'm afraid they are not what Taiwan needs right now to deter China.

Currently, Taiwan has (and plans to build more) substantial number of ASuW missile boats. But those boats cannot operate far from shore because they lack air cover. Taiwan would need air-defense frigate or light destroyer with VLS just like they intended but never accomplished with Chen Kung class (Spanish Álvaro de Bazán-class frigate could be example of such ship ) . Perry-class with single arm Mk13 launcher is simply not good enough to go against PLAN any more.

As for ASW, IMHO in China vs Taiwan scenario that would not be so crucial for Taiwan. Simply saying, Taiwan would first need to break out into open sea to worry about Chinese subs imposing blockade to Taiwan.
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Problem with buying powerful air defense ships is cost. They'll never be able to buy enough of them to become a serious threat in the power balance, and considering they will be constantly emitting in any real conflict, they will be among the first ships to be located and targeted.
Also, expensive air defense ships will siphon money away from other domains that could otherwise be more survivable, cost effective, and potentially cause the PLA to allocate more resources in dealing with -- submarines, specifically.

In that sense, smaller multirole frigates might be the best route for the Taiwanese surface navy at present while they try to fund other more asymmetric parts of their military.

But the power balance is only going to keep accelerating in its current direction, and the geography of the island itself doesn't do the ROC many favours in trying to fit a non-asymmetric war against the PLA.
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
Franklin said:
Taiwan is going to get help to build SSK's from America. How can the US help if it doesn't build its own SSK ?



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The question is how good will the ROC submarine building program (SSK) will be, since they are basically starting from scratch, including R & D and testing of systems and everything else. Wouldn't this cost a whole lot of money?
 
J

joshuatree

Captain
Equation said:
The question is how good will the ROC submarine building program (SSK) will be, since they are basically starting from scratch, including R & D and testing of systems and everything else. Wouldn't this cost a whole lot of money?
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Get some partners onboard to increase the number of planned units to be built to spread the cost of R&D out, lowering cost per unit? Singapore? Indonesia? Canada, their four subs are getting old? I believe the US are okay with sales to those countries.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Equation said:
The question is how good will the ROC submarine building program (SSK) will be, since they are basically starting from scratch, including R & D and testing of systems and everything else. Wouldn't this cost a whole lot of money?
Click to expand...

Franklin said:
Taiwan is going to get help to build SSK's from America. How can the US help if it doesn't build its own SSK ?



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Click to expand...

its a bit of a stretch but at the heart of every Nuclear Submarine is a diesel. Even Virginia class operates a backup Diesel engine in case of emergency. Now that being said I think it likely that the way this would work is that the pentagon would serve as systems supply chain. So Electo optics, torpedo tubes, management system, diesel engines, sonar systems, propeller or pump jet, mechanical actuators for rudders, sonars, basicly the actual nuts and bolts systems that are built and used not just on US subs but subs all over the world and are produced in the US would be offered. For example L3 technology makes electo optical Parascopes for Virginia class. They also use those scopes in Italian subs.

so the US can offer the guts of the boat. The Taiwanese would have to work out the Hull and integration. Its a bit like buying your car, by ordering all the parts and assembling them yourself.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Its really the only choice if they want really new subs. The last US SSK or SSP was Babal class which was new when Cars had Tail fins and Computers filled whole Rooms.
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
TerraN_EmpirE said:
its a bit of a stretch but at the heart of every Nuclear Submarine is a diesel. Even Virginia class operates a backup Diesel engine in case of emergency. Now that being said I think it likely that the way this would work is that the pentagon would serve as systems supply chain. So Electo optics, torpedo tubes, management system, diesel engines, sonar systems, propeller or pump jet, mechanical actuators for rudders, sonars, basicly the actual nuts and bolts systems that are built and used not just on US subs but subs all over the world and are produced in the US would be offered. For example L3 technology makes electo optical Parascopes for Virginia class. They also use those scopes in Italian subs.

so the US can offer the guts of the boat. The Taiwanese would have to work out the Hull and integration. Its a bit like buying your car, by ordering all the parts and assembling them yourself.
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True, but you still need to integrate the software and hardware and test them to make sure it complies with all those systems.
 
thunderchief

thunderchief

Senior Member
Bltizo said:
Problem with buying powerful air defense ships is cost. They'll never be able to buy enough of them to become a serious threat in the power balance, and considering they will be constantly emitting in any real conflict, they will be among the first ships to be located and targeted.
Also, expensive air defense ships will siphon money away from other domains that could otherwise be more survivable, cost effective, and potentially cause the PLA to allocate more resources in dealing with -- submarines, specifically.

In that sense, smaller multirole frigates might be the best route for the Taiwanese surface navy at present while they try to fund other more asymmetric parts of their military.

But the power balance is only going to keep accelerating in its current direction, and the geography of the island itself doesn't do the ROC many favours in trying to fit a non-asymmetric war against the PLA.
Click to expand...

Taiwan does not need large ships like Burke-class. Frigates like Álvaro de Bazán-class (or even Type 054A) would do nicely . Admittedly, they are more expensive then second-hand Perry-class, but what role could Perry-class play in China vs Taiwan scenario ?
In event of shooting war Taiwan has two basic options : 1. form hedgehog defense and never move far from island 2. try to play aggressively and engage China in open seas .

If they choose first strategy, then why waste money on Perry-class ? Obviously, they could build more missile boats and SAM & ASM batteries instead .
If they chose second strategy they would have to go for capable subs and good air-defense ships (especially because they will be priority target for China like you said ). Perry-class would not make the cut, those ships cannot survive saturating attack China would surely launch with their single-armed Mk-13s.

Of course, there is a third possibility - Taiwan buys Perry-class frigates not for war against China, but to deter smaller nations like Philippines . They could serve well in that role, but in that case they do not need so many of them (they already have Chen Kung class ) .
 
J

joshuatree

Captain
thunderchief said:
Taiwan does not need large ships like Burke-class. Frigates like Álvaro de Bazán-class (or even Type 054A) would do nicely . Admittedly, they are more expensive then second-hand Perry-class, but what role could Perry-class play in China vs Taiwan scenario ?
In event of shooting war Taiwan has two basic options : 1. form hedgehog defense and never move far from island 2. try to play aggressively and engage China in open seas .

If they choose first strategy, then why waste money on Perry-class ? Obviously, they could build more missile boats and SAM & ASM batteries instead .
If they chose second strategy they would have to go for capable subs and good air-defense ships (especially because they will be priority target for China like you said ). Perry-class would not make the cut, those ships cannot survive saturating attack China would surely launch with their single-armed Mk-13s.

Of course, there is a third possibility - Taiwan buys Perry-class frigates not for war against China, but to deter smaller nations like Philippines . They could serve well in that role, but in that case they do not need so many of them (they already have Chen Kung class ) .
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I think people keep forgetting Taiwan's budget is limited so it's not just about a wish list but about what can be realistically procured with maximum bang for the buck. Perry class purchase needs to be viewed in context of limited deterrent against PLAN until US reinforcements can arrive as well as deterrent against SEA neighbors Vietnam and Philippines as well as against Japan. Let's not forget Taiwan already has 8 Perry class. Cost of maintenance with this procurement would be the most value oriented because it won't require additional learning curves or stockpiling more parts. If they bought all 4, maybe they could even retire the Knox class as they are long in the tooth at this point, reducing op cost even further.

What about acquiring non-nuclear ballistic missiles for counter strikes as additional deterrence?
 
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