antiterror13
Brigadier
woww, really. Chaparral SAM system is American SAM, I am surprised that Taiwan didn't put French system (e.g crotale)
Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
- Thread starter Gollevainen
- Start date
woww, really. Chaparral SAM system is American SAM, I am surprised that Taiwan didn't put French system (e.g crotale)
The French would not approve the sale and installation of the Crotale, so the US gave them the Chaparrels, which are not adequate for the current threat environment.
There is a plan, and it has been approved I believe, but not implemented yet, to replace the Chaparrel with a 21-cell RAM launcher. That would be a very nice and up to date improvement for these vessels in terms of individual AAW defense.
There are conflicting claims on why the ship was not equipped with French weapons:
* The French wouldn't sell the ship with weapons
* The French were willing, but refused tech transfers
* The French wanted too much money for the weapons suite
* TW negotiated with DCNI for Aster-15 but the French wanted ridiculous prices for them
* The back-up negotiation for Sadral fell through due to the bribery scandal
* ROCN wanted French SAM but CSIST wants to install TC-2 instead
etc.
My $0.02 is that, if the French are willing to sell 960 MICA and 480 Magic II AAM's to ROCAF, it'd be silly to think that they weren't willing to sell some SAM's for the ships. If not Crotale, then at least Sadral system:
[video=youtube;H-IMQc87Dyk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-IMQc87Dyk[/video]
Whatever the reason, considering the bribery scandal and fallout afterwards, it's unlikely that the ROCN would import missiles from France at this point.
TW's CSIST wants to install 16 TC-2 (Sky Sword II) missiles, aka "Hai-Jan II" (海劍/Sea Sword) on the ship in box launchers:
(click to enlarge)
But ROCN is said to prefer foreign supplier (French or US) to domestic product. In the mean time, I expect these ships to have mediocre survival rates vs ASM's.
* The French wouldn't sell the ship with weapons
* The French were willing, but refused tech transfers
* The French wanted too much money for the weapons suite
* TW negotiated with DCNI for Aster-15 but the French wanted ridiculous prices for them
* The back-up negotiation for Sadral fell through due to the bribery scandal
* ROCN wanted French SAM but CSIST wants to install TC-2 instead
etc.
My $0.02 is that, if the French are willing to sell 960 MICA and 480 Magic II AAM's to ROCAF, it'd be silly to think that they weren't willing to sell some SAM's for the ships. If not Crotale, then at least Sadral system:
[video=youtube;H-IMQc87Dyk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-IMQc87Dyk[/video]
Whatever the reason, considering the bribery scandal and fallout afterwards, it's unlikely that the ROCN would import missiles from France at this point.
TW's CSIST wants to install 16 TC-2 (Sky Sword II) missiles, aka "Hai-Jan II" (海劍/Sea Sword) on the ship in box launchers:
(click to enlarge)But ROCN is said to prefer foreign supplier (French or US) to domestic product. In the mean time, I expect these ships to have mediocre survival rates vs ASM's.
MwRYum
Major
For those La Fayettes, actually all their offensive and defensive weapons are "recycled", those modernisation package from all the Fletcher and Gearing DDGs when those old ships decommissioned. So you're more than right to say it's "not adequate", in fact it should be said to be utter mismatch.
Sure the Taiwanese steadfastly blame all that on "Commie bandit meddling" (pulled from their mouth, though I'm sure they got it in much stronger language) that led to the blockade, but seriously do they so naively expecting that the PRC should/could/would/ought to just sit idly by? If the table have turned they'd do the exact same thing if not more, which is a matter of course to say the very least, all simply reflecting the fortunes of politics, of which the "right thing" is always measured by strength, there's no ethics, never was nor it will ever be.
So by all honesty the ROCN should be more reliant on domestic efforts rather than hoping a shift in Western politics will give them a window of opportunity, yet their own political squabbles along with their unhinged press makes national defense more than just difficult.
If I’m not mistaken, the RIM-72C Sea Chaparral was originally installed on older ROCN warships with the Wu-Jin upgrade program. The Honeywell H-930 mod 1 CDCS system used in the upgrade was designed to manage the Sea Chaparral SAM as one of its nodes. (REF: Naval Institute Guide to World Naval Weapon Systems, 1997-1998, pp 129-130).
ROCN’s Sea Chaparral SAM’s are MIM-72G/J models that use the FIM-92 Stinger’s AN/DAW-2 seeker head. These systems were “recycled” for installation on the La Fayette frigate and the Wu-Yi AOE:
Taiwan also makes a Chaparral-like system called Antelope:
IMO the path that lead the ROCN to acquire the La Fayette began with ROCN’s attempt to domestically build new frigates with AAW and ASW capability, “PFG-1” (忠義計畫) in late 70s-early 80s:
(site is in Chinese but ya'all can prolly figure out the specs section)
However the project was deemed too risky and axed in favor of licensing OH Perry class frigate design from the US. But the US would not sell advanced ASW hardware (i.e. AN/SQR-19 TAS) to TW for domestic construction, so the ROCN imported the La Fayette frigates with BAE/Thales ATAS/ALOES sonar suite w/towed array. (REF: Naval Institute Guide to World Navy Systems, 2006, pp 627-628)
In other words, the ROCN is operating locally built OH Perry frigates without TAS, and imported La Fayette frigates without modern SAM.
ROCN’s Sea Chaparral SAM’s are MIM-72G/J models that use the FIM-92 Stinger’s AN/DAW-2 seeker head. These systems were “recycled” for installation on the La Fayette frigate and the Wu-Yi AOE:
Taiwan also makes a Chaparral-like system called Antelope:
IMO the path that lead the ROCN to acquire the La Fayette began with ROCN’s attempt to domestically build new frigates with AAW and ASW capability, “PFG-1” (忠義計畫) in late 70s-early 80s:
(site is in Chinese but ya'all can prolly figure out the specs section)
However the project was deemed too risky and axed in favor of licensing OH Perry class frigate design from the US. But the US would not sell advanced ASW hardware (i.e. AN/SQR-19 TAS) to TW for domestic construction, so the ROCN imported the La Fayette frigates with BAE/Thales ATAS/ALOES sonar suite w/towed array. (REF: Naval Institute Guide to World Navy Systems, 2006, pp 627-628)
In other words, the ROCN is operating locally built OH Perry frigates without TAS, and imported La Fayette frigates without modern SAM.
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Per latest Combat Fleets of the World 16th edition, published this summer, the FFGs do have TAS, SQR18 on 1101 and ATAS/Lamproie on 1105 and later ships,
Apaches coming next month
The 61 pilots who were sent to the US to be instructed on how to fly the helicopters have completed their training, a military source said
The military is expected to receive six Apache attack helicopters from the US early next month, a military source said on Thursday.
The six AH-64Es will be the first batch of an order of 30 of the advanced US attack helicopters that Taiwan bought for more than US$2 billion. The last batch should be delivered next year, the source said.
Apaches coming next month
The 61 pilots who were sent to the US to be instructed on how to fly the helicopters have completed their training, a military source said
The military is expected to receive six Apache attack helicopters from the US early next month, a military source said on Thursday.
The six AH-64Es will be the first batch of an order of 30 of the advanced US attack helicopters that Taiwan bought for more than US$2 billion. The last batch should be delivered next year, the source said.
Ah, I stand corrected. This information is also published on the older 2007 (15th) edition of the book (pp. 758).
The ROCN has been trying to acquire AN/SQR-19 to upgrade the older TAS systems, but so far the US has not agreed to sell:
Apache in country
check out last sentence
"Meanwhile, Navy Chief of Staff Kao Tien-chung (高天忠) said the defense ministry is planning to replace the aging Sea Chaparral missiles currently installed on the Kangting-class frigates (French-made Lafayette frigates) with Sky Sword II missiles in 2017."
Hallelujah , just 20 years late!! I assume they are using the FMC cocoon launcher and have given up on VL? Is there a chance the army will pick the TC2 up for a I Hawk replacment??
check out last sentence
"Meanwhile, Navy Chief of Staff Kao Tien-chung (高天忠) said the defense ministry is planning to replace the aging Sea Chaparral missiles currently installed on the Kangting-class frigates (French-made Lafayette frigates) with Sky Sword II missiles in 2017."
Hallelujah , just 20 years late!! I assume they are using the FMC cocoon launcher and have given up on VL? Is there a chance the army will pick the TC2 up for a I Hawk replacment??
Here's the story about the Apaches, along with a pic:
Tapai Times said:
As to the Sky Sword II being installed on the Kang Ding frigates, that is excellent news, even if very belated. As I understand it, with the TC-2A the Chungshan Institute of Science and Technology (CSIST) development and production of new seeker heads means there is now an IR seeker function in addition to the radar. I also understand that the Lafayette Upgrade will include a new "X" band radar. This will make these vessels far, far better in the AAW role.
Just look at the differences in the specs beweeen the Sky Sword II and the Sea Chapparell:
Sky Sword II Missile:
Range: 100 km
Speed: Mach 4
Warhead 30 kg
GUidance: Inertial, Temrinal Radar and IR
MIM-72 Sea Chapparel Missile:
Range: 10 km
Speed: Mach 1.5
Warhead: 12.2 kg
Guidance Passive IR only
Now we just need to know how many will be installed on each vessel. Eight? Sixteen?
Sky Sword II Missile:
Range: 100 km
Speed: Mach 4
Warhead 30 kg
GUidance: Inertial, Temrinal Radar and IR
Where did you come by those specs, Jeff?
Wikipedia lists Sky Sword II's range as 60 km, and I'm pretty sure it is only active radar guided, no IR homing... It is a BVR missile after all, like AMRAAM. [edit: sorry, didnt' see you meant TC-2A, which supposedly has an IR seeker and a larger motor... however has anyone actually seen the missile in service? An IR seeker and larger motor should be fairly obvious]
Also, a surface launch TC II would have far less range than an airborne launched equivalent.
The PLA's PL-12 (which incidentally does have a range of 100km, at least on the latest versions), which has been developed into the surface launched DK-10, required a redesign and addition of a large motor to even achieve 50km slant range.
The same goes for the sea sparrow, which I'm sure you're familiar with. Derived from the original AIM-7 with a range of up to 50km, the vanilla RIM-7 only had a useful range of 19km! It was only the ESSM, with its larger motor and redesigned fins, did it manage to achieve 50km.
I'd be surprised if a surface launched TCII is able to surpass a 30km slant range from ground launch, assuming they are not adding a larger motor like ESSM or DK-10.
But still, TCII will still be superior than sea chapparal, as even an unmodified TCII will have greater range than the sea chapparal's measley 10km, and active radar homing will provide better multi engagement.
TCII will be a good replacement and give Taiwan's la fayette's much needed short to medium range air defense. Will be better if they could install it in a VLS though, and if it was equipped with a booster for a true ESSM equiavlent. I suppose beggars can't be choosers (once the mantra of the PLAN of yesteryear, ironically!)
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