Star Wars & Sc-Fi Talk

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
But I think you’re missing a pretty basic factor: book sales. The production of any work of fiction is most immediately explained by market forces. There would be no science fiction if writers couldn’t sell their novels successfully.

Exactly the opposite is true. Majority of science fiction creators struggled for majority of their lives. Only extremely few found commercial success and then they very often propagated ideas found in others' work.

The success of a entertainment product is not the same as the success of a creative idea - better described in this context as "meme".

"Star Wars" original trilogy was immensely successful despite being plain, boring and repetitive in all creative terms except for visual effects which is the main reason why it succeeded. "A New Hope" had two revolutionary elements - the iconic spaceship scenes and the combination of eastern spiritual and mythological elements at its very fundamental level. Star Wars is a breakout hit because it's a kung fu movie in space (which triggers emotional response "I can relate to this") dressed up in medieval chivalry and filled with fun spaceship designs recreating WW2 aerial and naval battles (which triggers cognitive recognition: "I know this").

But "Star Wars" was created on the backs of countless stories that had incomparably smaller commercial effect or in many instances were commercial failures.

You likely wouldn't tell it if you saw me face to face but I'm a proper gigantic (50+) nerd. 99% of my or my fellow gigantic nerd's engagement with creative content was engagement with self-made or commercially "barely viable" content. The people who are "nerds" today are ... even less than posers. They're brainless idiots who can't tell feces apart from pearls. The "whales" who fund the businesses were always the minority in our population. Being a nerd was about what you do, rather than what you have.

"Sci-fi" is not a handful of successful products. It's the entire culture associated with the mindset and ideas and - most importantly - the very people who cultivate it. This is why Star Wars now is a failure. It first ignores and then insults the very people that made it a success. These people made Star Wars big not because of the Star Wars movies but because of the countless recreations of the story or its derivatives in their own minds.

Matrix didn't become a hit because of the movie but because it could be seemingly endlessly applied to everyday culture.

Harry Potter didn't become a hit because Rowling is an amazing author but because the books were a type of "core handbook" for roleplaying game (including an important live action component) that the children reading the books could engage in with endless gadgets sold at a significant markup because of franchising rights.

In other words you seek the forest and miss it because in your mind a forest requires a solid wall of trees not trees scattered all around an area.

What made western sci-fi art a success was a culture recceptive to the ideas it carried. What makes Chinese sci-fi a failure is the lack of this very culture. How that culture emerges - I explained it in my previous post. But you think that it's all about mainstream products that become commercial success.

When the mainstream product becomes a commercial success the creative success is already complete.

Star Wars didn't explode ex nihilo. It was the culmination of half a century of American sci-fi at the time when it was mostly overtly disrespected and ignored by the mainstream. And American sf wouldn't have existed without European sf that preceded and inspired it. It had to accrue critical mass to explode the way it did and all that was necessary was a trigger that was "A New Hope".

Similarly Marvel movies didn't explode ex nihilo. They were a culmination of half a century of American superhero culture at the time when it was mostly disrespected and ignored by the mainstream. It had to accrue critical mass and wait for the trigger that was "Iron Man". Marvel movies succeeded because they were made by Marvel fans for Marvel fans. Previous superhero movies failed because they weren't. That was the critical mass.

Same with Lord of the Rings type of fantasy. Same with BDSM Vampire Romance. Same with every other "sudden unexpected success story".

The mainstream is dumb. It has only the feeding orifice and the defecating orifice. It must be fed something good to defecate something acceptable because as the feeding continues the quality will degrade over time.

Or to use a more scientific explanation - dissemination and quality of ideas is like movement through spacetime and mass/energy. Except that instead of spacetime you have noosphere - people and their imaginations. Movement is dissemination of memes. Mass/energy is the attractive potential of the meme - unknown and attractive or repetitive but recognizable. And from there go with the same logic as genetic inheritance since memes and genes are one and the same thing just in different medium.

If you have high energy you move through spacetime. If you have high mass the spacetime moves through you. High energy is individual attractive memes (niche populations of creative individuals). High mass is large numbers of repetitive memes (mainstream population of "normie" individuals).

When high energy dominates as space it is filled with high creative (energy) potential but it's like plasma or magma. It doesn't appeal to large mass (mainstream). Mass (recognition) wants more mass. Energy (originality) wants more energy.

When large mass begins to dominate a space that is a part of the multi-verse of cultural noosphere it begins to bend "spacetime" around itself and the high energy original memes begin to be drawn into the large mass that outnumbers and swamps it. The intertia of large mass makes it impossible to change and since time slows down around large masses there is no inside the mass. It's creatively stuck in time. (As are the high energy ideas - ironically). Only the highest energy ideas survive.

But unless you are one of these high-energy receptors you won't notice them until you're drawn by high mass. You don't know that you're in a forest until you trip and fall into a tree.

That's literally how the universe works. It's organised around mass rather than energy.

And if we add that art is mostly a response to trauma and high energies affect matter in the way that resembles trauma (gamma rays have highest energy and are absolutely destructive...) you may start to think how much of our existence is just a fractal of the basic physics of the universe.

There’s only so many new ideas considering, as you said, we are no longer in the middle of a period as disruptive to society as the Industrial Revolution was.

Ironically we are absolutely in one such period. Just that the disruption happens around our understanding of mind, identity and self, sexuality and reproduction and evolution understood both narrowly and broadly. We're just entering the creative phase.

The future is weird and exciting but it will be extremely difficult to tell apart the insane and destructive from the sane and creative. Just like it was every time in the past during such changes. Machines. Societal change and revolution. Lack of god and religious morals. Robots. Nuclear power. Germ theory. Sexual revolution. Astrophysics. Relativity. AI. That's why we have the fairytales and their monsters.

Ironically the "woke" garbage that dominates art may be the infection that will trigger adaptive response, the very factor that causes the evolutionary shift into another stage of punctuated equilibrium. We may yet get interesting art. In many ways we are already beginning to get it. And who knows, perhaps the monsters are out first and the monster-hunters are only beginning to find their courage. Who knows?

You just have to keep the eyes open. The mind's eyes. And if we are to end... even death can be a road to awe.

----

And since we're here I think it's time to return to my original avatar. While still displeased at least it represents what I'd like to represent - if you know what it truly means. Have a good week.
 
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FriedButter

Major
Registered Member
Seriously, asking China to have sci-fi stuff like Star Wars and Ghost in the Shell, like the US and Japan in the pre-2010s, is delusional. We were busy trying to build a functioning society and a wealthy country first that would set us up for the future, no one had the time for such creativity.

Our creativity only bloomed after the mid-2010s because all the younger people grew up in a wealthier and better society. I can guarantee that none of you will speak about this issue by 2040. If anything, China will return to being the center of cultural export once it surpasses the US.

I think the discrepancy lies in the fact that China was speed running the economic ladder. The civil war and the Second World War consumed much of the mid 1920s up towards the 1950. Economically devastated and severe damage to culture in general. Then the KMT took China currency and precious metals reserves when they fled from the frozen civil war.

In 1952, ~83% of Chinese people were in the agricultural industry. Then in the early 1980s, ~90% of China population was in extreme poverty. Blaming Mao for the lack of creativity is misappropriate when the societal and economic conditions did not exist for creativity to flourish. People would have been farming all day long from the 1950s to the
1980s before transitioning to manufacturing all day long up to the late 2000s.

As Chinese society grows more wealthy and people have more idle time the amount of artistic production will increase. It is as simple as that.

It should be noted that this is more of a recent phenomenon. Liquid money and extra time wasn’t more accessible for the general public until the last decade or so. IMO. Chinese artist and authors are in an infancy stage in terms of developing stories and artwork. It will take time to mature after being severely disrupted from the long war + the harsh post-war recovery period.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
The communist banned anything fantastical depicted in fiction because it wasn't realistic. Look at how many Western science fiction stories were set in the near future and then the time actually arrives and it doesn't match what was described. Where are the flying cars that were promised? I think the communist think they'll get blamed if something that’s even depicted positively of China in the future doesn't happen. That's why they didn't encourage science fiction. I look at Star Trek and how unrealistically it depicts the future. Like I said previously in this thread, if the show is depicting a future based on real history up until today, where are all the Chinese in space? You know China will be big in space because of what's happening today so where did all the Chinese go? I would be entertained to see their explanation. Was there a Final Solution implemented by the countries of the West on Chinese all over the world? I've heard Mexicans say the reason why they don't have Mexicans in the future is because they got rid of them. Star Trek isn't popular in China. Chinese will wonder the same thing on why you don't see Chinese in Star Trek hence why Star Trek isn't noticed in China because why would they want to watch something that shows Chinese not playing a role in where Earth is essentially portrayed as a utopia figuring out all its problems. It is in a part Freudian that it is a picture of the future they want to see where the West is still in control in the future. In Star Trek they even had a starship named the Tiananmen. It says the West’s version of history is what’s embraced in the future because why would they name a ship like that if it wasn’t honoring a political movement that the West is for? That kind of speculation of the future in science fiction is what the communist don’t like.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General

Why are Republicans surprised? The rumor was Jeri Ryan's ex-husband who was a Republican politician tried or "forced" her into swinging with other couples. It's probably safe to say Jeri Ryan doesn't like Republicans.

The thing is I talk to Republican science fiction fans. They have a totally different idea what science fiction is all about to them. It's basically anything they don't like shouldn't be science fiction.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
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Not sure if this true yet. It's the weekend so we'll see what the coming days say. I don't know why but there seems to be an attempt to not blame JJ Abrams for this. He's the primary culprit because his previous works have the same signature of his storytelling style. I hated Force Awakens which many of the people who blame Rian Johnson or Kathleen Kennedy for ruining Star Wars loved. To me it was all the same nonsense started in Force Awakens. There was in-studio party for Star Trek. Lavar Burton supposedly heard JJ Abrams say he wanted his Star Trek to be the only one remembered. That pretty much spells out what he tried to do to Star Wars. Force Awakens was a rewriting of A New Hope but with new characters he created. Time to erase his Star Wars to being forgotten forever.
 

CasualObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
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Not sure if this true yet. It's the weekend so we'll see what the coming days say. I don't know why but there seems to be an attempt to not blame JJ Abrams for this. He's the primary culprit because his previous works have the same signature of his storytelling style. I hated Force Awakens which many of the people who blame Rian Johnson or Kathleen Kennedy for ruining Star Wars loved. To me it was all the same nonsense started in Force Awakens. There was in-studio party for Star Trek. Lavar Burton supposedly heard JJ Abrams say he wanted his Star Trek to be the only one remembered. That pretty much spells out what he tried to do to Star Wars. Force Awakens was a rewriting of A New Hope but with new characters he created. Time to erase his Star Wars to being forgotten forever.
The problem is, they can technically reboot it as much as they want but that doesn't make the past mistakes gone, those are forever imprinted on people's memories.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
I see the recent strings of DEI and woke hires being removed is finally hitting Disney—finally, some good news.
When the bottom line is being impacted do you serious think that the big corporation executives and their shareholder masters, who don’t bat an eye to layoff productive and competently employees, will let the dead weights stay untouched?
 
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